I played morrowind, back when it was new, and didn't find it notably better than other great RPG titles out at the time. I may not have put that much into it, either. I'm not saying it wasn't great. I skipped oblivion.

Today, reading forum posts here it seems there are a fair number of people who compare the previous ES titles to Skyrim and say something is missing/lost/inferior about the new title. Some posters made specific observations (quest journaling, easy-mode quest system or lack of hard mode quest system), but more critics paint with broad, brief strokes, leaving me to wonder what it was they liked about the previous titles that leads to such a negative opinion of the current.

It has been a lot like listening to folk compare the final fantasy titles.

To keep things simple (because the comparison isn't) - tell me, if I went back today to play morrowind or oblivion, what would I find that convinces me of your point?

You don't need to be prepared by other people's subjective views, just go there and test it yourself with no exterior influence.

Like baby said it's totally subjective, there's no guarantee you can be 'convinced' of anything, anyway in my opinion you can find:

• better story in Morrowind
  
• better guilds and guild questlines in Oblivion
  
• better magic system in Morrowind and Oblivion
  
• less handholding in Morrowind
  
• more interesting society, culture, politics and religion in Morrowind
  
• more skills and attributes in Morrowind and Oblivion
  
• more rewarding and unique loot and locations in Morrowind
  
• more meaning in picking your race in Morrowind and Oblivion
  
• more weapon and armor/ slots variation in Morrowind

Without knowing what your gaming background is, it's hard to answer your question.

My background is something like 70% role-playing and adventure games on various systems/PCs, so it's entirely obvious that my fun is going to be based on how well a game does or doesn't do compared to what I do and don't like from that history. The first place Skyrim fails for me here is that leveling is simply not exciting to me. First, the perks are simply "Not nearly as interesting/fun as Fallout 3", to the point that I stopped taking new ones long before I stopped playing. Second, the stat bonus is worth "virtually nothing" once your stats get up around 250. Either 10 points isn't going to last long enough to matter, or I'd have won the fight anyway. For the primary means of progression, that's just "Not Good". It goes on from there, but as I said, I don't even have a frame of reference to really try to explain.

I've enjoyed and am enjoying all three games for their virtues. Some folks really really prefer some aspects of each game. Morrwind is by far the strangest and most exotic and really the first of its kind so it gets alot of love. Some people embrace the weirdness others strongly dislike it. There really is no other environment like morrowind so many hold it very dear.


Its very subjective( I disgree with about 2/3 of the list above for example) but things like this really stir up folks passion.

All this and:
- The ability to fail. Fail at casting a spell, fail at repairing armour or hitting a foe. Failing and learning, instead of winning or winning hard.
- Background lore. There are, what, like five good new books in Skyrim. 85% is a copy/paste of previous games and 13% of new lore is atrocious*, such as http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Advances_in_Lockpicking, which does nothing more than explain game mechanics. We used to get gems like http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ice_and_Chiton.
- Interacting guilds and factions. Join one guild, people in the opposing one like you less. Now we dont even have disposition anymore.
- Memorable characters. Why are the Barenziah's, the Divayth Fyr's, the uncle Curio's? Now NPC's have one line. That they repeat ad nauseum. Yes, you work for Belethor at the general goods store. Great.
- More attention given to build a world. Now half the world is essential and those tags dont even get removed after their questlines.
There is hardly any handplaced loot. Used to be you could ask around and get a lot of information. People gave directions, backgrounds, lore, history. Now they work for Belethor at the general goods store. Used to be you had the tools to shape your world as you saw fit and do as you will. Now we have a fixed jump height, no levitation, no teleportation.

The long and short of it is that Skyrim is a mere game, whereas Daggerfall and Morrowind were worlds

*Percentages may have been made up.

Many of the complaints come from a "strategy" background. It really takes no strategy to enjoy Skyrim, where the other games took planning and care to make those plans work out. Skyrim let's you do pretty much what ever you want to do. There's no real reward attached to careful planning. In Oblivion, careful planning was needed in order to "max" your character. You had to level the right skills at the right time or your character wouldn't get all the stat boosts that someone who planned and acted accordingly would. Some like the old dynamic. I personally hated it. It made it feel like a strategy game rather than a rpg. Skyrim just lets you do whatever, and you'll end up with the same stuff someone who max/mins his way along would get. I'm ok with that.

Comparing Skyrim directly to Morrowind isn't quite fair as Skyrim has obviously better asthetics + mechanics due to how technology has moved on in that time. However, this doesn't stop us from looking at what made previous titles so appealing and deep when they were released, and Skyrim so shallow upon it's release.

-Morrowind's world was very alien and very original. This really helped give the gamer a sense of "WTF's around the next corner?".
-The way exploration was handled in Morrowind was far better, with no compass to water things down, nor standard fast travel to rely on. Also, as a result of fast travel Skyrim's quests and explorations become far too repetative and are far more of chore. Morrowind had you journey to a dungeon, clear it and journey back - it took some time but felt rewarding. You could probably clear 5-10 dungeons in the time it took to clear 1 in Morrowind, yet all you are rewarded with is a levelled item which just doesn't feel rewarding at all.
-Once you had explored Morrowind to a large degree you could then use a combination of spells and items to fly through the world Neo stylee - it felt very empowering, and because it was something which wasn't available early on it got around the fast travel issue practically. Skyrim never feels as if the game reaches any type of landmark point in it, despite all that's happening. Morrowind had several of these (such as that just mentioned, *spoiler* resistance to the blight + disease etc.)
-There's no depth to the Skyrim quests and you never feel as if your doing right or wrong - as I've posted before, when asked if I wanted to attack Whiterun I was given 2 options - "yes" or "yes" - I had a wife in Whiterun so I actually wanted to say no and kill the dude offering to do so, alas I couldn't because Skyrim in no more an RPG than Justin Beiber is a rock god. Morrowind had quite a few dilemmas which you were free to choose yourself, hell two of the main factions were waring and this felt soooo good when you got caught up in it. The whole RPG aspect of it was far superior to Skyrim.

there's loads more but I've got to head back to work so will post later if I get chance.........

For me, Skyrim at least brought back the thrill of exploration that Morrowind had. At least, after I turned off the compass and all markers. I love the "flavor" of a dungeon. I like coming to the realization that this cave is being used as a poaching den, coming across a burned out wagon on the road with falmer arrows stuck in its side as its only indication of what happened. Each dungeon was once again unique, which was COMPLETELY removed from Oblivion. Oblivion dungeons were empty shells that could be stuffed with whatever random enemy might be just lower than the players level at that moment.

Unfortunately, Skyrim also carries over many of the basic game mechanic flaws of Oblivion as well. Skyrim also stripped down magic to its basic level in exchange for flashy effects. The biggest downfall is again a carryover from Oblivion, which is a completely "static" world. Nothing ever changes, nor can be changed by the player.

Basically, Morrowind was really the last RPG of the series. Oblivion began morphing into an action adventure game and Skyrim sealed the deal. Don't get me wrong... I love action adventure games too. However, there is no longer the feeling that your actions mean anything. Sure, you progress the storyline, but nothing ever changes in the game. If you stand back and look at the "world" after you have completed every major questline, the world is EXACTLY the same as if nothing ever took place. There is just something missing that makes everything feel so entirely shallow.

Critics are always constructive or at least amusing, regardless the motives behind every person. Yes there are a few users in the forums who are constantly bashing everything post-Morrowind Bethesda does, and there are also a few dragonborn1's who...well, are dragonborning all day long. But these two categories are probably less than 1% of the forums users. The others are giving constructive feedback with no hidden agenda they just want this series to progress without cutting the roots.

You really can't count on anything convincing you, because the guys who start these threads are giving a personal opinion about a ten year old game, based on certain criteria that are important to them, and there's no guarantee any of that would be important to you.

It makes a lot more sense to look at Skyrim as you find it and think if there is anything you would like to improve about it based on your own taste. Even if you went back and played Morrowind now, and loved it, you would never be able to experience the sense of "disappointment" or "betrayal" that some of these guys feel because parts of the mechanics were changed. I think it really is a case both of "you had to be there" and "you have to care". I have the first but not the second.

For me, for Morrowind, what's most missing in Skyrim(and to a much lesser extent Oblivion) is the sense of immersion. I doubt you could go back now and still find that -- it's a rare gamer who can tolerate old games after being used to modern comforts. Plus the graphics contributed a good bit to the immersion and they of course won't be as impressive(though I still love the water), but I believe it's possible to get immersed anyway with persistence.

What helped me get so engrossed in the world was mainly the lack of a quest compass and fast travel. In Oblivion people would say, "If you don't want to use fast travel and compass you don't have to, turn it off and ignore them". And that served as a good bandage for awhile but the thought that you can fast travel at any time is often in the back of your mind, changing the experience. Come Skyrim you can't even ignore the quest compass because they removed quest directions for almost every quest. Being forced to think about the world, recognize and remember its landmarks; that contributed so much to getting lost in it. In both senses of the word: you actually could and would get lost which might sound and often was frustrating, but a bit of frustration is actually a good thing. All my best gaming memories are of when I had to struggle through some difficult level or challenge.

And while you can ignore fast travel in Skyrim, and I do, the world was so obviously designed with it in mind. I felt rewarded for not using fast travel in Oblivion but in Skyrim it hardly seems to matter.

I had Morrowind for maybe two years before I was finally able to break the barrier of entry. I tried playing it like seven times in that period and always quit shortly after starting because of one frustration or another. But I kept coming back because I knew I would enjoy it if I figured out how. And that's what was great about old games, you either learned how to enjoy the game the right way or you didn't and moved on. Modern games pursuing "streamlining" and "accessibility" truly just cheapen the experience for everyone.

If you went back and played Morrowind you would see that the difference in gameplay between that and Skyrim are NIGHT AND DAY difference. Don't focus on the graphics, don't focus on the combat and don't focus on being able to use magic and weapons at the same time. I know those things have been improved.

Focus on the character creation and what you have to do to actually create a character that you want to play. Focus on the story line. Focus on how you level in the game. Focus on the massive differences between the races instead of everyone starting with the same amount of health, stamina and magica. Focus on the amount of different weapons and the differences in skills that you need to use them. Focus on actually having to read directions to find out where you need to go instead of just being led by the hand to where you need to go and then to where the item is in cave you were just led to.

The differences between Morrowind and Skyrim are so great and so massive that they feel like 2 different series. That is the problem I have with Skyrim.

But the Morrowind world was entirely static. Apart from a few randoms marching about the streets of balmora most NPCs were pinned to a spot; only moved if in combat. Dont get me wrong...I really like Morrowind; and I really enjoyed it...once I got the idea of it and was able to adjust to its static-ness...once I realised I had to work at it and dig the story and game out of it.
Skyrim is very much more dynamic than Morrowind. No comparison.


A lot of people found the necessity to level strategically in Morrowind and Oblivion to be immersion breaking. I too prefer the more natural sense of progression in Skyrim. I still do give thought to levelling, but never in the anol way that was almost required in the earlier games.

Focus on the character creation you have to restart 50 times so you actually can make the character you actually want to play.
Focus on the leveling where you just pick 3 attributes you add a few points, instead of skyrims leveling where you do basicly the same thing as in Morrowind but you also can pick a perk, and half of those perks actually do something what actually affects your gameplay.
Storyline which is actually same as skyrims "evil god returns and the hero has to kill him", yeah cool...
Massive differences between races...what difference...?oh you mean different racial abilities and skills just like in skyrim.
Focus on the amount of different weapons, the problem is that most of these weapons just look different, they don't do anything different.
Like a two handed sword has the exact same damage and range as a two handed mace. And the same with skills, yeah it might be fun to level more but it is really that big deal?
Focus on having to spend 10 minutes trying to find information from the journal about a quest you took a long time ago. Journal was a cool idea, the problem is that it didn't work.

I see most of those things as improvements, but i can understand that some people like them. Its subjective.
The problem with most these critics are that they usually just hate Skyrim because its new and popular.

...then cry because the game promises you that you can play any character you want, from a fast-talking merchant to a pacifist thief, but really offers only a few choices of characters that are actually fun and rewarding in any way.
...then cry because by the time the story line gets interesting, you are overpowered and the rest of the game is a cakewalk.
...then cry because all these choices during character development only disguise the fact that character creation serves no purpose because everyone ends up the same (maxed out) in the end.
...then cry because 75% of all the powerful artefacts to loot are long blades and that sword-wielding warrior/mages are the obvious intended character type for the majority of all quests and loot.

BUT ignore all the aspects of combat, because certainly that is NOT an important aspect of the game...

Focus papercut_ninja, focus like a laser on the head of a shark.

I replayed Morrowind+Tribunal a while ago as a Bosmer archer thief. I could run it from a disc image on a cheap Asus netbook, with texture mods. It is an all-time classic game. Would Skyrim be better if all the mechanics were like Morrowind? I think the only thing I would really want is levitation. It costs about ten bucks or something, people should go check for themselves I suppose.

The next TES will go back to full weird, I am pretty sure.

I agree to some extent here.

In the "olden days" games did not have "auto mapping" , "adventure markers" or "fast travel". The player had to WALK/RUN everywhere and draw in their MIND (or on paper) what the world looked like and where everything was. Large worlds were simply a PITA to navigate through. On the way to finding some undiscovered place you'd spend more time dealing with countless NPC villians, trolls, rats, wolfs and the like - often times getting killed multiple times and getting side tracked onto dozens of other quests/adventures and forgetting about what you started out looking for. Playing often involved having a group of friends that were playing the same title and compairing notes on where things were and how to do things.

Players had to be ether very very LUCKY, consult with a number of friends as to what worked for them, play the game multiple times or purchase a gamers guide to not only find out where everything was but what quests ought to be done in what order and what/how the countless interactions with NPC's effected the game play.

If you wanted to maximize points, objects found, a charater stat, cash or playtime you'd have to develop a "plan of attack".

YES - decisions were almost always game changing. Instead of simply having "stormcloaks" or "imperials" to join (which for the most part have very simular quests and the game plays out the same) there were a 1/2 dozen to a dozen "factions" that mostly did not get along. Joining "A" faction might lock you out of (and unknowingly cause you to battle with) "B" faction but would allow you to still join "C" faction but not "E" & "F".

If I unknowingly made all the 'wrong decisions' my playtime might be much less than someone who made all the "correct decisions".

Gaming was a frustrating PITA in those days. The modern TES games have come a long way since the early days of gaming.

- I don't have to make a bunch of 'game changing decisions' (personally I've yet to play the 'civil war' questline as I'm not interested in it)
- I don't have to remember where everything is (there are markers and a map that guide me)
- There are multiple websites/online forums that have walkthroughs for each and every quest (if needed)- no need for a guide book.
- I'm not having to repair my weapons/armor after every use (PITA)
- There are not 10gawdzillion stats which you have to decide which to add to or not (and which ones are usefull or not before its to late)

IMHO: what we've lost is the requirement to play the game multiple times to be able to enjoy it. I'm having a blast on my 1st play through.

Quickest way to answer your question, OP.

Have you ever stopped to wonder why this game is selling just as much as a new (ROFL)CoD(ROFL) title?

Simply because it's appealing more and more to the mass. The mass likes to play World of Warcraft and Call of Duty, I could expand on this but I really just get the feeling that it would be utterly unecessary.

I like to play WoW too.

These are issues in skyrim too, you know.

Like those 3 argonians said it's totally subjective, there's no guarantee you can be 'convinced' of anything, anyway in my opinion you can find:

• better stories in Daggerfall
  
• better guilds and guild questlines in Daggerfall
  
• better magic system in Daggerfall than in Morrowind
  
• less handholding in Daggerfall than Morrowind
  
• more interesting society, culture, politics and religion in Daggerfall (High Rock politics)
  
• more skills and attributes in Daggerfall than Morrowind and Oblivion combined
  
• more rewarding and unique loot and locations in Morrowind, though Daggerfall involved many complex ways to obtain artifacts compared to searching every urn, which is boring
  
• more meaning in picking your race in Daggerfall than in Morrowind and Oblivion
  
• more weapon and armor/ slots variation in Daggerfall than in Morrowind
  
• Limited dual-weild in Daggerfall
  
• Actual plots and clans for BOTH werewolves, vampires, and wereboars
  
• Consequences for your actions unlike the static worlds of Oblivion and "Morrotrash".

Cool.

Sometimes I like to play CoD! However, that doesn't mean either of them are good games.

It's entirely subjective, however Morrowind was a simplified piece of trash compared to the glory that was Daggerfall.

Sure they are. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsqJFIJ5lLs?