Imperial Legion VS Stormcloaks : V - Skyrim

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:26 am

another thing if you joined the storm cloaks when you entered sovernguard you see rikka there but not Tulius this indicates that he has a greater role to play later on otherwise he would be there as well

Tullius is not present in Sovngarde simply because he is not a Nord.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:25 pm

Even in the 21st Century, when 9/11 happened, many Middle Eastern people were attacked and the same goes for the Japanese during Pearl Harbor. With the Thalmor (an Elven organization), how can you blame Ulfric for being xenophobic against Elves?

So you are all for continuing the stoopid and not learning from it. Okey dokey. Thanks for the insight.

"Hey, look, people acted stupid, so we should too!"

Yeah, that works wonders.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:54 am

This is the dialogue you first hear when you meet them, if you stop to listen. It gives a very good view of their position and attitude.
Tullius

Spoiler

Legate Rikke: Im telling you, Ulfric's planning an attack on Whiterun.
Tullius: He'd be insane to try. He doesn't have the men.
Legate Rikke: That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause. Riften, Dawnstar, and Winterhold support him.
Tullius: It's not a cause. It's a rebellion.
Legate Rikke: Call it whatever you like, General. The man's going to try to take Whiterun.
Tullius: Jarl Balgruuf...
Legate Rikke: Balgruuf refuses the Legion's right to garrison troops in his city. On the other hand, he also refuses to acknowledge Ulfric's claim.
Tullius: Well, if he wants to stand outside the protection of the Empire, fine. Let Ulfric pillage his city.
Legate Rikke: General.
Tullius: You people and your damn Jarls.
Legate Rikke: Sir? You can't force a Nord to accept help he hasn't asked for.
Tullius: If Ulfric's making a move for Whiterun, then we need to be there to stop him. Draft another letter with the usual platitudes, but this time share some of your intelligence regarding Ulfric's plans. Embellish if you have to. We'll let it seem like it's his idea.
Legate Rikke: Yes, sir.
Tullius: You Nords and your bloody sense of honor.
Legate Rikke: Sir.

Ulfric

Spoiler

Galmar: Balgruuf won't give us a straight answer.
Ulfric: He's a true Nord. He'll come around.
Galmar: Don't be so sure of that. We've intercepted couriers from Solitude. The Empire's putting a great deal of pressure on Whiterun.
Ulfric: And what would you have me do?
Galmar: If he's not with us, he's against us.
Ulfric: He knows that. They all know that.
Galmar: How long are you going to wait?
Ulfric: You think I need to send Balgruuf a stronger message.
Galmar: If by message you mean shoving a sword through his gullet.
Ulfric: Taking his city and leaving him in disgrace would make a more powerful statement, dont you think?
Galmar: So we're ready to start this war in earnest then?
Ulfric: Soon.
Galmar: I still say you should take them all out like you did Deadking Torygg.
Ulfric: Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies.
Galmar: We're ready when you are.
Ulfric: Things hinge on Whiterun. If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better. But if not...
Galmar: The people are behind you.
Ulfric: Many I fear still need convincing.
Galmar: Then let them die with their false kings.
Ulfric: We've been soldiers a long time. We know the price of freedom. The people are still weighing things in their hearts.
Galmar: What's left of Skyrim to wager?
Ulfric: They have families to think of.
Galmar: How many of their sons and daughters follow your banner? We are their families.
Ulfric: Well put, friend. Tell me, Galmar, why do you fight for me?
Galmar: I'd follow you into the depths of Oblivion, you know that.
Ulfric: Yes, but why do you fight? If not for me, what then?
Galmar: I'll die before elves dictate the fates of men. Are we not one in this?
Ulfric: I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight...because I must.
Galmar: Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day when words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed.
Ulfric: I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn.
Galmar: Aye. But in the meantime, we have a war to plan.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:08 pm

Spoiler

Ulfric is also working for the Thalmor.

No. Read the dossier again. You are 100% wrong. However Tullius does cooperate with the thalmor.
Read Imperial missive:

Spoiler

It has come to my attention that inquiries have been made as to the whereabouts of one Thorald Gray-Mane.
It is my duty to inform you that Thalmor agents have taken possession of the prisoner and have escorted him to Northwatch Keep.
I don't think I need to elaborate. It is in everyone's best interest if the matter is dropped entirely. I trust there will be no further inquiries as to this matter.
Gen. Tullius

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:23 pm

No. Read the dossier again. You are 100% wrong. However Tullius does cooperate with the thalmor.
Read Imperial missive:

Spoiler

It has come to my attention that inquiries have been made as to the whereabouts of one Thorald Gray-Mane.
It is my duty to inform you that Thalmor agents have taken possession of the prisoner and have escorted him to Northwatch Keep.
I don't think I need to elaborate. It is in everyone's best interest if the matter is dropped entirely. I trust there will be no further inquiries as to this matter.
Gen. Tullius

Ulfric is working for the Thalmor, whether he realizes it or not. Just because he isn't aware of this connection doesn't mean it isn't there.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:29 am

No. Read the dossier again. You are 100% wrong. However Tullius does cooperate with the thalmor.
Read Imperial missive:

Spoiler

It has come to my attention that inquiries have been made as to the whereabouts of one Thorald Gray-Mane.
It is my duty to inform you that Thalmor agents have taken possession of the prisoner and have escorted him to Northwatch Keep.
I don't think I need to elaborate. It is in everyone's best interest if the matter is dropped entirely. I trust there will be no further inquiries as to this matter.
Gen. Tullius

Why would he care about a rebel? The Thalmor have taken one of their soldiers, so what?

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:58 am

This is the dialogue you first hear when you meet them, if you stop to listen. It gives a very good view of their position and attitude.
Tullius

Spoiler

Legate Rikke: Im telling you, Ulfric's planning an attack on Whiterun.
Tullius: He'd be insane to try. He doesn't have the men.
Legate Rikke: That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause. Riften, Dawnstar, and Winterhold support him.
Tullius: It's not a cause. It's a rebellion.
Legate Rikke: Call it whatever you like, General. The man's going to try to take Whiterun.
Tullius: Jarl Balgruuf...
Legate Rikke: Balgruuf refuses the Legion's right to garrison troops in his city. On the other hand, he also refuses to acknowledge Ulfric's claim.
Tullius: Well, if he wants to stand outside the protection of the Empire, fine. Let Ulfric pillage his city.
Legate Rikke: General.
Tullius: You people and your damn Jarls.
Legate Rikke: Sir? You can't force a Nord to accept help he hasn't asked for.
Tullius: If Ulfric's making a move for Whiterun, then we need to be there to stop him. Draft another letter with the usual platitudes, but this time share some of your intelligence regarding Ulfric's plans. Embellish if you have to. We'll let it seem like it's his idea.
Legate Rikke: Yes, sir.
Tullius: You Nords and your bloody sense of honor.
Legate Rikke: Sir.

Ulfric

Spoiler

Galmar: Balgruuf won't give us a straight answer.
Ulfric: He's a true Nord. He'll come around.
Galmar: Don't be so sure of that. We've intercepted couriers from Solitude. The Empire's putting a great deal of pressure on Whiterun.
Ulfric: And what would you have me do?
Galmar: If he's not with us, he's against us.
Ulfric: He knows that. They all know that.
Galmar: How long are you going to wait?
Ulfric: You think I need to send Balgruuf a stronger message.
Galmar: If by message you mean shoving a sword through his gullet.
Ulfric: Taking his city and leaving him in disgrace would make a more powerful statement, dont you think?
Galmar: So we're ready to start this war in earnest then?
Ulfric: Soon.
Galmar: I still say you should take them all out like you did Deadking Torygg.
Ulfric: Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies.
Galmar: We're ready when you are.
Ulfric: Things hinge on Whiterun. If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better. But if not...
Galmar: The people are behind you.
Ulfric: Many I fear still need convincing.
Galmar: Then let them die with their false kings.
Ulfric: We've been soldiers a long time. We know the price of freedom. The people are still weighing things in their hearts.
Galmar: What's left of Skyrim to wager?
Ulfric: They have families to think of.
Galmar: How many of their sons and daughters follow your banner? We are their families.
Ulfric: Well put, friend. Tell me, Galmar, why do you fight for me?
Galmar: I'd follow you into the depths of Oblivion, you know that.
Ulfric: Yes, but why do you fight? If not for me, what then?
Galmar: I'll die before elves dictate the fates of men. Are we not one in this?
Ulfric: I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight...because I must.
Galmar: Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day when words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed.
Ulfric: I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn.
Galmar: Aye. But in the meantime, we have a war to plan.

You post this in nearly every Imp v. Cloaks thread as if these first conversations are what you need to base your choice on. If you choose based on flowery language, Ulfric's got the support. But that's because he's a politian and Tullias is a general.

Ulfric couldn't afford to say anything less than what he said or he'd be a complete sleazeball and no one would like him. And even then some of his words are questionable. Galmar makes the statement about Balgruuf, "If he's not with us he's against us", to which Ulfric replies, "He knows that. They all know that."

To me this sounds eeriely like the depiction of Ulfric in the Bear of Markarth (a potentially biased book, but possibly holding some truth), where he kills any who won't fight for him against the new Forsworn kingdom. Perhaps even the situation with the Dunmer, though he can simply ignore them because he has the power in Windhelm.

General Tullias does not understand Nord customs or culture at the beginning, which is why he has Lieutenant Rikke to help him. He's got intelligence that the 'Cloaks are planning to attack Whiterun, so of course he's going to try and convince Balgruuf to accept Imperial aid, and Ulfric's aggression is easily the most compelling reason. He doesn't understand why Balgruuf would be so stubborn in not accepting help from either side, especially when Ulfric's got it out for him and all the Jarls all pledged to the Empire to begin with.

Spoiler

However, by the end of the questline, he's says he's gained respect for Nords and their ways (that is, after the war effort is won and his loyal Nord legionnaires have shown their dedication which is also similar to how others excuse Ulfric's treatment of Dunmer and Argonians because they must prove themselves worthy), and he'll continue learning as he makes his home there.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:25 pm

Nezhi said:

Imperial Legion.
Stormcloaks whine about how the Thalmor take their freedom and Talos, but they like to forget the fact that they forced the Forsworn into slavery, took their homes and forbade them from worshipping their own god.

The Stromcloaks weren′t formed at that time yet and it doesn′t really matter which side Igmund is, so I don′t quite see how it relies to the topic.

So I was responding to that, saying that it wasn't really the Stormcloaks who "forced the Forsworn into slavery, took their homes and forbade them from worshiping their own god". Rather it was the jarl and by extension the empire, Ulfric and his men were just tools. Also I realize that the Stormcloaks had not officially been formed, I just meant Ulfric's men.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:56 pm

Well... It's really like 4-5 Nations.

Dominion - Valenwood, Elswyr, and Altmer's Island.
Empire - High Rock, Cyrodiil, and Skyrim.
Redguards - Hammerfall (They are by themselves.)
Argonians - Black Marsh and Morrowind.

The 5th one will become Skyrim if the Stormcloaks wins.

Yeah, Redguards are fighting the Thalmor like bosses.

The Thalmor will probably forbid Arkay's worship since he was once a man (Just like Talos) and that would cause one heck of a ruckus.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:06 pm

Sigh.

How is the Empire allowing the Thalmor to drag people off to torture chambers any better than Ulfric allowing bandits to attack villages of other races?

Understand that the Thalmor can easily claim someone to be a Talos worshipper and get him to "confess" and he will never see the light of day again. Anyone who dares attack the Thalmor will have the imperial soldiers after him as well.

At least for the stormcloaks, if you are attacked by bandits, their soldiers can't actually look the otherway if they are in the same area. There is a difference between passive neglect and active malevolence.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:42 pm

Sorry children, the Stormcloaks are taking the weekend off. Don't worry, we'll prove the error of the Empire's ways on hopefully the next one. Good night.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:43 pm

Sorry children, the Stormcloaks are taking the weekend off. Don't worry, we'll prove the error of the Empire's ways on hopefully the next one. Good night.

Don't worry, the Ulfric for President party might be late at coming to the rally (you don't put down mead and women halfway) but rest assured all shall know the righteousness of our cause.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:31 pm

Ulfric is working for the Thalmor, whether he realizes it or not. Just because he isn't aware of this connection doesn't mean it isn't there.

Ulfric is working towards a stronger skyrim. Tullius is weakening the empire by wasting manpower fighting in what is a civil war local to skyrim. If he would allow skyrim to rule itself an alliance could be formed.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:35 pm

Personally I'd fight Stormcloak if I was living in Skyrim, but my latest character is going to initially be pro-Rebel, but slowly choose the Empire.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:21 pm

Fixed.

Don't want to be a pompus moron, but read this(http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak, possible spoilers in the link). It states black-on-white that the Thalmors possition in Skyrim would be weakened if the Empire wins. The only reason they have such a strong presence in Skyrim is because of Ulfric.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:30 pm

Don't want to be a pompus moron, but read this(http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak, possible spoilers in the link). It states black-on-white that the Thalmors possition in Skyrim would be weakened if the Empire wins. The only reason they have such a strong presence in Skyrim is because of Ulfric.

"As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. "

Implies they dont want either side to win. And it's Tullius that allows thalmor to run rampant in skyrim. He cooperates with them.

Spoiler

They demand he hand over a prisoner and he complies. Then he tells his people to just shut up about it and not to ask what happened to the guy.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:56 pm

"As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. "

Implies they dont want either side to win. And it's Tullius that allows thalmor to run rampant in skyrim. He cooperates with them.

Spoiler

They demand he hand over a prisoner and he complies. Then he tells his people to just shut up about it and not to ask what happened to the guy.

I know.

"The http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Unbound at http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim."

It was a reference to the fact that people say that the Thalmor will gain absolutely free rein in Skyrim if the Empire is in charge, which this obviosly disproves.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:36 pm

Stormcloak. Without a moment's hesitation. I've even tried joining the Imperial Legion in subsequent playthroughs, but I just can't bring myself to do it. Aside from the standard "they put my head on the chopping block" argument, there are a multitude of reasons why I side with the Stormcloaks.

Regardless of whether or not the Imperial Legion is with or against the Thalmor and Aldmeri Dominion, they still signed the White-Gold Concordat after defeating them at the Battle of the Red Ring, apparently due to Imperial forces being exhausted. Yet, when the Aldmeri Dominion tried to claim the portion of Hammerfell granted to them in the Concordat, the Redguards alone were able to drive them out. Regardless, the Aldmeri Dominion still were given the right to enforce and persecute anybody worshipping Talos. This fact alone is enough to make me side with the Stormcloak rebellion.

People can argue that Ulfric is racist, and they may be right. However, his racism is practically non-existant compared to the ideologically-motivated racism displayed by the Thalmor, whom the Imperial Legion seems to be in cahoots with. People can also argue that the Imperial Legion sees the Thalmor as an enemy, and are not allied with them, but that's BS. The Imperial Legion is tolerating the Thalmor's presence, and in my eyes that's just as bad as being aligned with them.

Also, somebody brought up the argument that Ulfric invaded and stripped the forsworn of their religious freedom. This is not true. The Forsworn took advantage of a defenseless Markarth, killed some Nord land-owners, and a desperate Igmund offered Ulfric the free worship of Talos in return for defeating the Forsworn Uprising. Ulfric, being a man who will fight for what he believes in (in this case, the right to worship a deity of his own choosing), accepted.

Aside from all of the above, the Imperial Legion is governed by General Tullius, a man who does not respect Nord tradition and beliefs. Tullius is hell-bent on destroying the Stormcloak Rebellion, and although he claims to be against the Aldmeri Dominion, he doesn't seem to be taking any action against them. Instead, his army's sole focus is squashing the rebellion. At the very least, Tullius's priorities are mixed up.

People can say Ulfric is a racist, that he's power hungry, or whatever...but when the battle begins, he's right there on the front line fighting for what he believes in and for what his people believe in, and that's something I can admire. I can not say the same for Tullius or the Imperial Legion.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:34 pm

I know.

"The http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Unbound at http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim."

It was a reference to the fact that people say that the Thalmor will gain absolutely free rein in Skyrim if the Empire is in charge, which this obviosly disproves.

True but

The only reason they have such a strong presence in Skyrim is because of Ulfric.

Not true.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:08 pm

Not true.

Oh yeah it is true. Talk to the Jarl of Markath and he will tell you that everyone had a shrine to Talos in their home. This only stopped because Ulfric had the bright idea to attract the attention of the Thalmor to the area.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:16 pm

Oh yeah it is true. Talk to the Jarl of Markath and he will tell you that everyone had a shrine to Talos in their home. This only stopped because Ulfric had the bright idea to attract the attention of the Thalmor to the area.

Indeed.
As much as I respect Ulfric for being a strong and loyal leader, he have done more to damage Skyrim than to help it IMO.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:08 am

Stormcloaks.

I like their cause much better and all the signs point to their eventual sucess.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:21 pm

Oh yeah it is true. Talk to the Jarl of Markath and he will tell you that everyone had a shrine to Talos in their home. This only stopped because Ulfric had the bright idea to attract the attention of the Thalmor to the area.

The Thalmor's goal is to eradicate Talos worship. They were going to do it one way or another, sooner or later. If they had just demanded access to Nord homes, would the empire say no? Does the empire ever say no to the Thalmor anymore? You have your answer.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:03 am

Not really keen on either.
The Empires been going to hell in a handbasket recently and the Stormcloaks are only speeding the process up.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:55 am

With my Nord, I joined the Stormcloaks. To fight for freedom of my country, and get rid of the damn high elves.

With my Dark Elf, I joined the Empire. I want a free Windhelm, where me and my people can live in peace. I want to get rid of the racists, and make Skyrim a better place for Dark Elves.

I do not like to think with my own brain when it comes to these things, I think with my character's brain. When I play one, I had some factions alot, when I play another one, I join those same factions and hate the ones I am in with my first character.