Wait a sec. There is no evidence in the game that suggests he was of advlt age because we never get to see the high king alive and there is no dead body in the game. He is a flat character that is only mentioned in dialogue and i think seen in that dead place. And there are other NPCs that refer to Torygg as a boy... I remain unconvinced of his advlt status. I am certain he was a teenager. Lets agree to disagree.

Oh okay, didnt know all that. But the dragons were still there first haha

You find Torygg in Sovngarde.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:SR-npc-High_King_Torygg.jpg's a picture of him.

Meeting him in the afterlife is no conclusive evidence about his age?


edit: ninjaed.


Also: Even as open-minded as the Nords are about same-six marriages, I seriously doubt that they'd marry a kid to that young, but definitely not child-aged Elisif character.

You may have to go with this angle and the flimsy excuse that staying with the Empire helps trade.

Because most people are casting it in our modern, over-sensitive definition of "racism". The Nords are "nationalists" not racists.

I edited my post. But anyway. Its not that important. I never saw him in Sovngarde myself though. I think thats crappy so Im gonna go back there and check it out some more.

the way I see it is that the more you look at the situation the more it is made apparent that the stormcloaks have much more short-term goals than the imperials. Yeah there are gonna be people like the captain and the torturer but a lot of the other imperial people you met are far more honerable.

Also once you get out of helgen it skyrim seems to be a lot more pro-imperial

• the imperial jarls are much more honourable/sane/logical
  
• windhelm, no matter how cool, does sort of look like the classic bad-guy lair
  
• no matter what your personal opinion is, ulfric is painted as a racist

so really after a while it sort of balances out

Alright, but only because you refuse to go and check it out doesn't mean that he wasn't there. Here is a picture of him: http://images.uesp.net/thumb/5/56/SR-npc-High_King_Torygg.jpg/600px-SR-npc-High_King_Torygg.jpg

I don't think Stormcloaks are racists--at all. Just because you are for your family/clan ahead of anyone else doesn't make you a racist. They assume a position of strength to retake their lands and their religion. A racist or fascist is one who would impose his beliefs and way of life on others out of a misplaced belief that he is superior and entitled, not one that defends his own home and his own faith from alien aggressors and their fascist impositions.

Having said that, I'm playing as an altmer this time (my 2nd), and I intend to side with the empire. I'll see how that goes. I hate the Thalmor with a passion.

Just like real life wars, good and evil on both sides. I guess we have to look at the bigger picture - i.e. what's best for the 'world' of Skyrim as a whole, like, who can best stand up to the bigger threat of the Thalmor? I dunno, still not made my mind up either - the rock, or the hard place?

There are quite a few examples of ulfric's racism, the figurehead of the stormcloaks.

To start with, can't remember where I found this out but its bound to be on one of the elderscrolls wikis, when Ulfric came into power he forced all of the dunmer to live in the grey quarters slum, as well as making the argonians live outside the city walls.


Also if you talk to brunwulf he will say about how he tries to talk to Ulfric about improving the quality of living for the dunmer in windhelm and that ulfric will not deal with it, that ulfric thinks that there are only two kinds of people "nords and the people below them"

I'm in my second character now, giving the first one a rest. With the first, I followed the Imperial guy out and did the Dragonborn thing. Went to sovengarde and saved the universe, etc. Pretty dull after that. Anyway, with my second character, I followed the stormcloak guy, met the fam in Riverwood and hang out at their home when I'm in the area. This PC is a member of DB (now Listener/Leader), so laying low in the country is ideal. Cut a little wood, etc.

I don't plan on joining either side. They're both lame. The legionnaires are rude, while the Stormcloaks can be friendlier, than can be pushy out in the field. And they are racists. "Skyrim is for the Nords!" Really? Even my lovely Lydia in Trebor's life shouted that phrase.... Oh well.

From a purely RP POV, I don't know if its better to help the Empire stay in one piece or if a free Skyrim can do better on its own..,.

It isn't ulfric's responsibility to take care of the dunmer, nor did he force them there because he wasn't even alive 160 years ago when they moved into windhelms snow quarter. Ulfric doesn't help anyone that's not willing to help him. It's as simple as that.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/decree-monument

IIRC the Dunmer refugees came to Windhelm in the wake of destruction of Vvardenfell and the Argonian invasion of Morrowind, and were given that section of the city in which to settle. That was almost 200 years before the events of Skyrim (the game). Ulfric did not force them to live there, since they have been living there since long before he was born.

With regard to the Argonians, if you speak to Brunwulf about it after he becomes Jarl, he states that he will not allow them into the city proper either. They will still be relegated to the docks "for their own safety." The only difference between Brunwulf's "Argonian policy" and Ulfric's is that the game allows you to ask Brunwulf about it and he is allowed to state a reason. You never get to have the same discussion with Ulfric, so you can believe what you like - but there is no reason NOT to believe that Ulfric kept them out of the city for same reason as Brunwulf.

Going back to the Dunmer question, you blast Ulfric for forcing them to move into the Gray Quarter (which - again - he did NOT do)... but Brunwulf states no intention to allow them to buy city property outside of it. He only talks about taking meetings to discuss making improvements in the Quarter at some future time, because he expects to have money and resources to do that now that the war is over. That would be the same money and resources that Ulfric didn't have when he was Jarl, money he couldn't spend on anything, including the Gray Quarter, even if he wanted to, because fighting and winning the war is and must be his first priority.

Having played both sides to the finish, as far as I can see the only difference between Ulfric and Brunwulf that is verifiable through actual dialogue spoken by themselves and that is not tainted by the subjective opinions, biases, or outright ignorance of other NPCs... is that Brunwulf intends to discuss making improvements in the Gray Quarter with the money he will have that Ulfric didn't have and therefore couldn't spend on the Gray Quarter or anyting else. Dunmer? Still segregated. Argonians? Still segregated.

Honestly after all the hype about Brunwulf, I was not impressed.

Thank you, I try to make my words all pretty. Still, even if the Empire holds onto Skyrim, the many Nords will always be wary of outsiders, even downright xenophobic, but a land or province of people behaving as such is not new to TES at all. I guess the Stormcloaks just scare people more because they're a military force.

You were in the wrong place at the wrong time, if you weren't on a cart with the leader of their number one wanted man at the time, they wouldn't have tried to kill you.

Anyway I look at it. It's Ulfric who is the real bad guy. He does not tolerate political neutrality, nor people who just wish peace and choose not to be involved in the conflict. You're either with us or against us were the words he shouted at the Nords he butchered during the Markath incident for not taking sides in the conflict.

That is my favorite dark comedy - I have it on Blu-Ray.

The Dunmer of Windhelm have taken no side in the conflict but he still allows them to live and work in the city according to the policies adopted re: Dunmer refugees way back when they started pouring across the border. If he couldn't tolerate their neutrality he could just toss them out.

You know who else just wished for peace? Neville Chamberlain. Look it up and see how that turned out.

^Have you seen anybody else except Nords in the Stormcloak outfit?

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_Valmir.

Not sure what your point is. That the Stormcloaks don't accept non-Nords? Not true as it's perfectly possible to join them no matter what race you choose for your PC. That non-Nord NPCs aren't voluntarily signing up in droves? Doesn't have anything to do with whether or not Ulfric is tolerant of the fact that they're not signing up to fight for him... in fact if Nords are the only ones actually fighting for Ulfric, and all the non-Nord residents in Stormcloak country continue to go about their daily business without being hassled over it, then that would tend to contradict the claim that he doesn't tolerate neutrality.

So why does he attack Whiterun? Are you telling me that Jarl Balgruuf is pro-Imperial? You have got all your argument mixed up by including other races as the whole idea of the Stormcloak revolution is about being true sons & daughters of Skyrim, and his cruelty exclusively applies to Nords only.

LOL.

Yep I usually side with the empire, but that chick gets petty much that treatment every game. As for the torturer, does anybody for a second think that the Stormcloaks don't do worse?