With my last character I played a nord lass with a hot temper who decided to join the Stormcloaks because the Empire tried to behead her for no particularly good reason when she was caught crossing the border. It worked and I got to go through the whole civil war on that side.

I decided to make a snotty little Imperial merchant type who would join the Legion to save the Empire so as to see Skyrim from the other side.

But I couldn't get over being annoyed over being condemned to death five minutes after crossing the border by that snotty Captain because she was too lazy to find out what really happened. So, no civil war for me this time round.

Has anyone found a good way to RP past this problem? I mean you don't find out what racists the Stormcloaks are until later, but the Imperials come off as murdering prisoner-torturing jerks from hour one....

I can't do it either. Especially after escaping Helgen through the Imperial side and seeing the torturer. AND after going through the war with the Stormcloaks and seeing what a snivelling coward Tullius is.

I completely understand. I can't bear the thought of throwing my lot in with the Stormcloaks after meeting their Jarls. I could get behind their cause, but ideals are only as good as the people in charge, and I there's MAYBE one Jarl on the Stormcloak side I find more appealing then their Imperial counterpart.

Edit: Oh, you were looking for rp advice as to how to get around this problem.

For me, it's a simple matter of going with Hadvar. He's a good man, and really does a lot to lessen the stigma of the Empire in my eyes. It seems to me it's a simple matter of seeing the Empire in the worst possible light because of the circumstances. It's not a great first impression, but then again Ulfric doesn't make a great first impression with me either. "Legends don't burn down villages." Oh, really? That's good to know. By the way, while you were busy quipping, 10 of your kinsmen just burned to death. The Stormcloaks don't even bother helping in the fight. They just run off to save their own skin and try and relieve me of mine because in my confusion I followed the man who promised to protect me.

Then there's the fact that I was attacked by Stormcloaks because I didn't "Keep moving" like they were ordering me to when I was relaxing by the side of the road.

I have thought about this a lot . . . I think that the creators got a little Afghan/Iraqi (hold on) war dilemma about this game. I think they are trying to show that in war (or cultural interactions) all sides think they, alone, are right. In all wars, there are atrocities on all sides. (No, I am not arguing that some wars/incursions, etc. are not justified. Both of you are right in what you have said.
I haven't joined either faction with either of my two characters so far. (One a good guy, the other a bad --.e. DB, TG--guy. I have thought about having each of them join one side so I can see all the quests. I may still do that, but my good guy, well, I just can't see him wanting to join either side.

its just a stalement with all terribad things happening that war comes with, theres no link with actual wars going on. if u still wanna call them that, call em oil raids



anyway, yes the empire is portayed pretty bad in the game, but thats how its supposed to be. empire isnt doing too well after all

too bad ulfric is a [censored] too so i just ignore the war altogether

I think the whole point of the binary opposition between coloniser (Empire) and colonised (Stormcloak) is to show that neither side is completely in the right. Its a grey area. Notice that both sides have their good points and their bad points, and those two aspects are really well balanced. What that means is that you will find that when you weigh your decisions you realise that both sides are basically as bad as each other. You just have to decide which is the lesser evil and perhaps try to curb some of the disaster as I did with your diplomatic skills...

Like REL said, going with either Hadvar or Ralof at the start does make a difference. They're pretty much the ideal example of their respective allegiance's soldier. Hadvar is kind and brave, and while he believes in Tullius he also recognizes that the Empire isn't infallible. Ralof is equal parts kind and brave, and he trusts in Ulfric more than anything but he has a cooler head than a lot of Stormcloaks.

Once you escape with Hadvar talk with his uncle about the Empire and Skyrim. He can make a pretty good case for supporting them.

As far as the Captain goes, I must admit I do enjoy following the Stormcloak out so I can kill her and hang her nakid body on the moose head (I carry her helmet as a trophy). I would like to think that she was just too pre-occupied with having Ulfric there to be executed and all, but her indifference to my characters life is hard to get over.

And yet despite their inherent virtues that are privileged by their dialogue, their blind devotion to their causes demonstrates the fundamental issue that is exposed to you as the player. What I am alluding to is that in a manner of speaking which ever path you take be it stormcloak/empire/fence-sitter the game functions in terms of a parable with an implicit normative principle on colonisation. Colonisation is the context of binary opposition within Skyrim's main campaign.

I've done it from both sides. They made Tullius so unappealing that it wasn't fun. It also doesn't help that the Empire is about to chop off your head at the beginning of the game. Seriously, who would want to join the side that was about to decapitate them? It makes for good drama at the beginning, for sure. But for lack of a better term, they blew their wad on that scene. While you don't have to join either side, you should want to join the Stormcloaks if for nothing else than simple self-preservation. The only reason I tried the Empire side is just to see how it was. And it svcked. And Tullius is such a d!ck at the end when it comes to killing Ulfric that it made it all the more unsavory.

the fact the the stormcloaks would do the same, especially if you are not a Nord helps.

Both sides svck. Pro's and cons.

However I believe that the game was "meant" to be played as a Stormcloak.

I also believe that the Empire is the correct decision.

Actually in defence of the Empire are the following points:

• Hadvar never incites a child to take up arms; Ralof does.
  
• The Empire is cosmopolitan (i.e. mixed culture and race is a good thing under the dominance of Imperial Law); The Stormcloaks are anti-cosmopolitan (i.e. mixed culture and race is a bad thing under the dominance of Nords as a race)
  
• The Empire never killed a child to seize power; Ulfric killed a child-king to seize power (a child unable to defend himself against a full-grown man)
  
• The Empire made concessions with the Aldmeri Dominion to protect its citizens; Ulfric had dealings with the Aldmeri Dominion to gain influence and those dealings contradicted the doctrine of the Stormcloaks' ideology (documents in the game support this found in the Thalmor Embassy)

Why do people still think that the Stormcloaks are nothing but a racist? making them sound like the white supremacy when it's the Thalmor that's the racist ones. If It wasn't for my newly done crewcutt I would pull out my head hair for each time I read such ignorant statement.

The Stormcloaks are into Nord supremacy; the Thalmor are into Aldmeri supremacy. Both are racist.

That said, Skyrim was Orc land long before it was settled by Ysgrammor. So, the Empire colonised the Nord lands who colonised the Orc lands. Who is the real victim there?

The Forsworn?

Naturally, both men believe really hard in what they're doing. But from the time you spend with them at the start and over the course of the Civil War, they're the only ones who react in a way beyond unerring certainty. Not that having every Stormcloak/Imperial guard with unique dialogue is a very good idea, but still.


Also, I used to think that the Stormcloaks were racist or what-have-you. But I realize they just act in extremes because they have no other choice if they want to secede. Nords are already a typically proud and stubborn race, and when they believe in something as much as they do secession from the Empire, their grips turn to fists and their hearts beat so loudly in their ears that they hear nothing else. It's quite a romantic notion, really.

whoa whoa whoa! Back up here. High King Torygg was no child. He was a man in his middle to late 20s maybe in his early 30s. http://images.uesp.net/5/56/SR-npc-High_King_Torygg.jpg, even go as far as to search for him in sovngarde he looks like a man to me.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:SR-npc-Lars_Battle-Born.jpg not http://images.uesp.net/5/56/SR-npc-High_King_Torygg.jpg. Ulfric did not kill a child to seize power. He killed a man that severely lack of any quality combat training. Ulfric did Skyrim a great service by taking out the weak.

The empire essentially surrendered to the Aldmeri Dominion. Galmar was right when he said that the day they signed the agreement with the Aldmeri Dominion was the day that the empire died. They didn't made concessions to protect it's citizens at all.

But skyrim is nord land. They should be allowed to run their country whatever they want it to be. It's not being supremacy at all.

That opinion on reactions is subjective. Nevetheless, your language is kinda nice about the fanciful nature of the Stormcloak ideal; however, that doesnt change the fact that they are still racist. Couching prejudice in patriotic banter is a strategy to justify a great number of atrocities that are otherwise found abhorent by civilised ethical systems of deliberation (i.e. the Nords discriminate against all non-Nords).


I concede that point. I was just thinking of how they referred to the Torag as a "boy" at least twice in the game (e.g. "he was only a boy and he killed him" or something like that). I assumed by Nord standards that Torag was just a child or perhaps a teenager married to a woman out of convenience. After all its not like he consummated that union, I see no offspring. It was common practice for such marriages between mere "children" and advlts in the medieval era. Usually more common among advlt men and girls just in the flush of womanhood or not even that :/


If the Foresworn are indeed Bretons then they are originally from High Rock. The Orcs in Skyrim claim they were in Skyrim first as was the will of Malacath.

Empire colonised the Nords who colonised the Foresworn who colonised the Orcs.

Technically the Dragons were there first so they technically are the true natives...

Bah its hard meeting the jarls oc either side really get a good feeling about the side u chose. But really they about equal in the amount of bad jarls and good jarls and the jarls who are just figure heads and the town is actually ruled by the advisors.

This pretty much. When I get an idea to join the Stormcloaks, I either 1. Remember the poor old Dunmer and Argonians in Windhelm. If that's how the leader of the Stormcloaks treats people in his own hold, then screw off. 2. Jarl Balgruuf. He's a bro, and a good leader imo. Taking over his city and tossing him into exile just doesn't seem right.

I think it's only Sybille Stentor who calls him a "boy". Now, keep in mind that she's quite old and has been in her position as court mage for a very long time, long enough to see him grow up. It's extremely common amongst "older" people to think of those in their early twenties as "youngsters". I mean, my old mum sometimes refers to her new physician as "that girl" - and trust me, doctors in my country are not children at all.

Orsimer, falmer, and dwemer inhabited the area. The Nedes showed up from the north, and they got along well for the most part. At some point the Orsimer decided to leave Skyrim and settle in the dragontail mountains in High Rock. They mass exodused from Skyrim. The nedes and falmer cohabited for a while until the nedes discovered the eye of magnus at Saarthal and decided it should be sealed away. The Falmer knew of this and massacred the Nedes(They wanted it for themselves) in what came to be known as the night of tears. Some time later a survivor, Ysgramor, returned with a bunch of other nedes all looking for vengeance. They wiped out the falmer who retreated to the dwemer cities. The dwemer enslaved them and both the dwemer and nedes fought for some time. Eventually the dwemer uncreated themselves leaving just the nords left in skyrim. The falmer(Who now were mutated into goblins) remained in the abandoned dwemer strongholds underground. No one else had a claim to the land so the nedes took it as their own and eventually became the Nords we know of today.

The nords expanded their territory greatly until a civil war broke out after a succession fued(This is what spawned the rules for calling the moot and the rite of succession). Afterwards the system of government became pretty much what we know of in skyrim. During the simulacrum, Skyrim invaded parts of High Rock and Hammerfell capturing the lands known as "The Reach". While they didn't want to lose the land, neither hammerfell or High Rock cared for the reachmen who inhabited the area and were probably completely alright with the nords killing them off. Then again it's hard to have sympathy for a group that waylays travellers and sacrifices them to daedra.(Their intermingled breeding probably didn't help their public perception either)

Some time after Oblivion's events, the Bretons and Redguards mounted a joint attack on Orsinium and completely destroyed it. Refugee orcs moved back to skyrim and settled in their old strongholds.