He won't accept your terms, unless banning of Talos worship is overturned.

A war with the Thalmor would nullify the White-Gold Concordant anyway, so I don't see why that would be a problem.

That's exactly my point. It would just start another Great War with the Aldemeri Dominion.

Also, there are other things to consider that you arn't.

There is currently a war on. A lot of money is goign into keeping the Stormcloaks in the war, and once its over he will likely be able to spare more men to keep the peace. It can't be said either way, but i'm willing to give Ulfric more credit than that. Arn't you forgetting the intelligent political mind he has also? Putting aside the fact he has/will have advisors as King to make up for any (real or percieved) failings, he is extremely charismatic, a devout Talos worshipper which means a great deal in TES, and he is also very cunning. The best example is letting Elisef live. It paints him as benevolent, merciful, and takes the teeth out of any rebellion fueled by her being a martyr. He also plans on rebuilding before taking the fight straigh to the Thalmor, so I really think you are being a bit unfair. Basing his qualities as a King on what might not actually be true anyway (since we don't see evidence of it, as far as I know) and ignoring the positives.

Seriously, can you in no way see where i'm coming from? If not we'll have to agree to disagree, because i've stated my points and have no desire to defend them with no real discussion.

He certainly can't be any worse with the general management than Jarl 'Send a Legion' Elisef. And she's the other shoe in for High - of Skyrim if the Empire win.

Edit: Whew, i've been up too long. See you tommorow folks. Bedtime.

It's not like both sides aren't preparing for a Second Great War. Better to do it on our terms than the enemy's. Plus I have dragons at my disposal.




How are we not having a real discussion?

It's a war Ulfric started. You can't abandon your responsibilities because you picked a fight with someone. Just because Ulfric started a rebellion doesn't mean no longer has to manage his own Hold.

You're basing your opinion on things that we don't see evidence of either. It comes down to whether or not you want to give a politician the benefit of the doubt. I choose not to, especially because Ulfric's already proven he wouldn't hesitate to kill someone if it means furthering his own goals. Not only that, but look at the Jarls he instates in the Holds. Most of them are much worse than their Imperial counter-parts. Not a good sign of his managerial abilities: He's instated yes men, not effective leaders.

I'll agree that Ulfric is cunning. Cunning and manipulative. I'll admit that he's charismatic, as he's definitely inspired a lot of men and women to die so he can have a larger throne. It's funny, but all the things you put forth as reasons to like Ulfric or have faith in him as a leader are the same reasons I don't. Not only do I not trust the man, but he's also an obstacle in my plans. I want to become Emperor of Tamriel. All of it. An independent Skyrim doesn't help that cause. Not only that, but Skyrim doesn't need two heroes. One's enough: The Dragonborn who stopped the World-Eater and put an insurrection that threatened to tear Skyrim apart. That's a much better story in my book.

And while it's true that lets Elisif live (I would have slaughtered every single Stormcloak if he hadn't), he doesn't extend that courtesy to Tullius, which to me is a huge mistake. George Washington didn't kill Cornwallis during the Revolutionary War. Doing so would probably have outraged Great Britain and sent even more soldiers. Sparring Tullius would have been a gesture of good will towards the Empire that could help foster good relations between the two sovereign nations.

And yes, Elisif is inexperienced, and much younger, but she is still capable of growth. And even if she is a worse ruler than Ulfric, consider this fact: The only reason she's called upon to be the ruler of Skyrim is because Ulfric killed her husband. Ulfric is ultimately responsible for any decline that Skyrim suffers after the death of High King Torygg.

I feel like Ulfric is a real politician because of this discussion and i would not vote for him...but he really only has 1 opponent (elisif) and she needs to be a jarl for about 20 more years before she is ready to be queen

Not a relevant comparison. Switzerland was not a part or province of any political entity with which Hitler was at war. It was (is) a completely independent, "stand-alone" nation that decided to remain neutral during that conflict. It was not in any way subordinate to some larger political entity already involved in the hostilities.

Whiterun is NOT an independent stand-alone nation. It is part of an Imperial province and therefore part of the Empire and therefore Imperial BY DEFAULT until something happens to change that.

That just makes Ulfric sound more like Hitler.

Sounds like you have already determined the future of TES series.

No, it makes him sound like someone who actually knows the difference between a strategically important subsection of enemy territory and a legitimately neutral independent nation with whom he is not already at war. Which is apparently more than can be said for some people.

So killing other Nords, because they choose to not pick sides is not a crime of humanity in your opnion.

No, but there's a lot of evidence that there's going to be a second war. Both Tullius and Ulfric talk about the threat of the Thalmor and hint in a not so subtle manner that they are preparing to fight them, and one of the Thalmor agents at the Embassy mentions that the Dominion will strike again.

I don't think the rest of Skyrim will play out the Civil War path in my opnion.

As in DLC? Probably not. Although I do hope they add to all the guilds and whatnot. A lot of them just seem half-finished.

Even aside from the fact that Whiterun is NOT neutral at the beginning of the game, it is IMPERIAL by default - as noted above - Balgruuf DID in fact choose a side, if you want to look at it that way. There was that whole business with the axes and then a letter to Tullius asking for Imperial troops, remember?

And if, in some weird parallel universe version of Skyrim, Balgruuf had decided to support Ulfric and ask for Stormcloak troops instead, Tullius would have done exactly the same thing that Ulfric did in the opposite situation. He would have attacked Whiterun and done his best to take it, regardless of whether that meant fighting and killing Nords or men and mer of every imaginable race or draugr or trolls or freakin' frostbite spiders, because Whiterun is too important NOT to be a target for whichever side doesn't already hold it.



P.S. Please let me know ASAP if this makes Ulfric look more like Hitler, Stalin, a big stompy racist robot, or that creepy old guy from down the street who keeps yelling at the kids to get offa his lawn. I can hardly stand the suspense.

The moot literally cannot be called unless Torygg dies. The law came out of the previous war of succession which was caused by too much fueding for the throne

"My way of judging is better than theirs."

Guess what? There's nothing stopping them from hiring a builder like anyone else and repairing their stuff.

** Dealt with later, also contradicted by Suvaris.
Regardless of Niranye's intention, one dunmer backs her up and owns a farm because of it(Where a nord even works). Another altmer owns a main establishment in the city. Ambarys says the murders aren't any concern of his until they take a dunmer. That is isolationist and seclusionist. If you don't think that attitude is helping cause this rift, I doubt anything can sway you. The cornerclub is the ground zero of the traditional morrowind sentiment which is by its very nature very anti-nord.

Let's just say I despise character assassination based on "I think's" instead of actual proof. And an entire post that only tries to mitigate one side is disingenous.

Does not exist in game. Obviously so. It's cut lines. Or do you think Tullius knows Ulfric's right and wishes the empire would let skyrim go?


They have the leisure of not being cramped together in a tight living situation. The situation in windhelm is due to traditionalist dunmer clashing with traditionalist nords. Compare Riften to Windhelm. One of them has some dunmer that refuse to adapt to the culture around them, the other does not. Can you guess which one has problems with cultural tensions?

Well, I see my little topic turned into the Great Skyrim Debate. Should have known. I was just hoping for some suggestions on constructing a future character who would actually want to join the Legion.

Mostly I think it shows how well Beth did at designing a complex cultural situation.

I'm going to cite http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law and move on....

Thought you knew.

Future character? Ah. Try an Imperial or Nord that has been living outside of Skyrim, barely crossed the border (before being snatched up) to see how their homeland or ancestral homeland had changed and was ashamed that the Stormcloaks have seceded?


Well, that was more like Plan B.

Its the stormcloaks fault you were on that wagon to begin with. You don't see Ralof standing up for you saying this man/woman is not a stormcloak. No he remains silent and condems you to die with the rest purly by association.

The success of the Altmer doesn't count the racism is mostly focused on Dunmer, the beast racists and largely in stormcloak cities. So stop bringing up the high elves they aren't dunmer and thus not relevant. At the stall to the right of Niranye is a dark elf who says flat out he's not allowed to live anywhere but the Gray Quarter because he's a dark elf. Brunwulf Free-Winter will testify how Ulfric ignores the needs of the non-nords how if bandits are bothering Nords he's quick to send troops but does nothing if there bothering dunmer or Khajiit.

Money, permits, permission from the Jarl to do renovations inside the city, lots of things stop them. And the whole part they aren't allowed to live anywhere but the slum which is said in game.

Well I haven't really followed the thread, but here's how I look at it...

The Stormcloaks had an opportunity to tell the Imperials that you and Lokir weren't with them. Maybe the Imperials wouldn't have listened, who knows, but they didn't even try, even after Lokir pleaded with them to.

While that Imperial Captain svcks, Hadvar seems genuinely concerned about you, and doesn't seem to want to see you sent to the block.

Ralof, on the other hand, seems to only want you for political gain, for what you can do for the Stormcloaks. Ralof really rubs me the wrong way. I trust Hadvar a lot more.

Then, if you actually do go with Ralof, there is the fact that when he's telling his story to the people in Riverwood, he embellishes the story by claiming that it was Ulfric Stormcloak's head on the block with Alduin attacked - Ulfric never has his head on the block during the execution. It seems to me as though Ralof is trying to fictionalize the tale to make it sound better. It sounds more like Ralof is trying to spread propaganda, and use you for his and Ulfric's own gain, while Hadvar comes off as more trustworthy.

As someone back on page 1 also said - Hadvar does make a pretty solid case for joining the Imperial Legion, despite everything.

Balgruuf was neutral since the start of the game and at the battle of Whiterun he made a quick decision to side with the empire because he had always benefited from their protection so he had favoured the empire even though he worships Talos and hates the thalmor

Hey guys, these two totally aren't stormcloaks.

But hey if a murderer breaks into your house and kills your wife and the police arrest him and then decide to execute him and you since you were there, that's perfectly fine in your book.


So for the 140 years Ulfric wasn't ruling windhelm, what properties did they buy outside the grey quarter? None? Really? Ulfric's oppression even goes backwards in time? Crazy. But even more crazy is that Ulfric's oppression is only selectively racist against 2 dunmer who own a bar. Apparently Belyn Hlaalu got oppressed into buying property outside of the grey quarter and is so oppressed that he runs a farm and hires a nord farmhand. Oddly enough, he's adapted to the nord culture and became a good deal more successful than the others who insist on isolating themselves. It's a rather big indication that the rift in windhelm between nords/dunmer is cultural and not racial.

Brunwulf also forgets to mention that Ulfric's almost dirt poor due to the war and only sends aid to those helping his cause. Correlation != causation. Khajiit and Dunmer are not helping with the war, he gains nothing for sending troops to possibly die. Hell he gains nothing for letting the dunmer live in his city, but he lets them live there anyways.

So when a dunmer tries to leave windhelm, the guards arrest him and toss him back into the grey quarter. Interesting. I don't believe I've seen this event.

They don't need permission from the jarl, they're their own sect. Even if they were citizens of the hold, it'd be Jorleif who'd handle any permit work since he's the steward. Jarl's determine who can live in their city, but the steward handles the renovation and etc.

That doesn't make him neutral.

And I will simply point out again that Skyrim is an Imperial province when the rebellion starts, and the only way for any Jarl or hold to *not* be Imperial is to actively side with the Stormcloaks. Any part of Skyrim not held by the Stormcloaks or in open rebellion against the Empire *is* Imperial by default. The fact that Balgruuf doesn't want the Legion to send a garrison into Whiterun doesn't make him truly neutral, it only makes him a man who (very understandably) would prefer that the actual fighting not be done in his hold and city. That doesn't make him or his hold any less Imperial than it was before the conflict started. It only makes him not a rebel.

All of Skyrim is still technically part of the Empire unless Ulfric's rebellion is successful. Eastmarch, Winterhold, the Pale, the Rift, all of that is still Imperial territory.

I don't really think Balgruuf really cares one way or the other who wins the war at the start of the game. The Imperials win? Good for them. Ulfric's victorious? Whoopdeedoo. He just doesn't want it to be in Whiterun.

Ulfric pushes Balgruuf into throwing in his lot with the Imperials when the Stormcloaks start setting up catapults outside the city.