I always side with the Imperiels for many reasons...mostly regarding "The bigger picture" here...

1. Skyrim NEEDS the Empire just as much as the empire needs skyrim..perhaps even more so...The Empire is the ONLY thing keeping the Thalmor from overunning Skyrim. Also, documents in game show that the Thalmor "are stoking this civil war to weaken skyrim".

2. A victory for the Stormcloaks is a victory for the Thalmor...as if the Stormcloaks drive out the Empire, the Thalmor will just swoop in and claim a weakened Skyrim that can't stand on its own....

3. The Nords, my fav race in the game mind you, are just to nationalistic...how could someone support the Stormcloaks after the way they treat the Dark Elfs?

4. The Empire only signed the White Gold Concordat to save peoples lives...to end the Bloodshed....furthermore, if a person is such a "Follower and Worshipper of Talos" would that person want to see his Empire get back to normal.? After all this IS Tiber Septims Empire...

5. Allowing the Stormcloaks to win will almost certainly lead to the Elves ruling over Tameriel....do many of you forget how brutal the Ayleids and the like were to the rest of the races? does the Night of Tears ring a bell? Umaril the Unfeathered....etc....no way we can allow that to happen...no skyrim must remain a part of the Empire, after winning this civil war...it gives the Empire as bit better standing to repair relations with Hammerfell, and THEN The Empire can stand against the Thalmor and liberate Elsewer(who im sure only signed a treaty under threats with the empire weakened) and return Skyrim back to normal with a new Line of Dragonborn Emperors to ascend to the throne.

Remember what Talos said:

• But you were once man! Aye! And as man, you said, "Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter."
  
• "I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you."
  
• Aye, love. Love! Even as man, great Talos cherished us. For he saw in us, in each of us, the future of Skyrim! The future of Tamriel!

So the land of belongs to Talos....this IS Talos's empire...Im certain Talos understands the circumstances and does not want to see the Empire he created fall...The empire fought well but it just wasn't enough...however Talos knows there will be a round 2 to this whole war with the Thalmor....its far from over. Also Talos knows that "There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip

The Empire will prevail over the Thalmor, but it needs to be United...The Empire has been GODD to Skyrim for a very long time....the least Skyrim can do is help the Empire rebuild itself and let the Empire repair relations with Hammerfell so we can take it to these Thalmor elves together.....Skyrim is too weak to stand on its own....without the Empire...Skyrim is doomed....Skyrim needs the Empire....just some are too dumb to see it...Ulfric Stormacloak is only in it for HIMSELF....Toryagg would have sided with Ulfric had he just asked...most of solitudes court said this....but Ulfric killed the High King (who was chosen at the moot) because Ulfric wants the throne for himself...thats what this is all about.

i know the Empire tried to kill me in the beginning of the game, but it was a mistake....Hadvar is a good man....if one really cares about Skyrim and doesn't want to see Skyrim taken over by the Thalmor you side with the Empire.

Also the Empire is not friends with the Thalmor...the Empire can't stand them...they are just waiting for the right time to take it to the Thalmor....

According to the dossier on our pal Ulfric, either an Imperial or Stormcloak victory weakens the Thalmor.

Sound military strategy. He attacks Whiterun because its geographical location makes taking it the most sensible next move given the stalemate in place at the start of the game. This is made clear by the discussion you overhear between Ulfric and Galmar when you first enter the Palace in Windhelm, and is obvious from a cursory glance at the map.


Balgruuf is a man who is doing his best to maintain the status quo, and like it or not the Empire is the status quo for any hold that has not already thrown its lot in with the secession movement. In that sense, the Stormcloak notion of "you're either with us or against us" is absolutely spot on. All of Skryim was an Imperial province before the rebellion started; any hold that has not voluntarily joined the rebellion or been taken by the Stormcloaks is, by default, still Imperial. The only claim Balgruuf really has to neutrality is in his initial refusal to allow a garrison of Legion troops into his hold, but since his hold is still part of the Empire whether the Legion is there or not that doesn't make him any less "pro-Imperial" than any other Jarl who hasn't yet joined the rebellion. He just doesn't want Imperial troops fighting Stormcloaks in his city and on his land, and his desire to prevent it is as admirable as it is hopeless. His personal feelings about the Empire and the war may indeed be ambivalent, but in the political sense Whiterun is Imperial and will remain so until he decides to join the rebels or they take the hold from him.


Gee, one minute it's all about the terrible things Ulfric did to the Forsworn and Dunmer and Argonians, the next minute he's reserving all his cruelty for other Nords. I wish everybody would just make up their minds about who he hates the most otherwise my scorecard is gonna be a mess by the end of the game.

Heh. I don't think Ulfric hates anyone other than the Thalmor. I don't like him, and won't follow him on any of my toons, but I doubt hatred is an overweening attribute in his nature. Other things, certainly.... but not hatred.

What the Thalmor want most is for the war to go on indefinitely, weakening both sides as much as possible.

The next best option for them is an Imperial victory, regardless of the duration of the hostilities, as that would allow them to maintain their anti-Talos *cough* espionage *cough* activities across Skyrim as well as in the rest of the Empire.

The next-to-worst option is for Ulfric to win after a prolonged conflict. That would at least weaken both the Empire and the newly independent Skyrim considerably, but would mean the Thalmor are unable to operate in Skyrim once the Empire no longer controls it.

The worst possible outcome for the Thalmor is a quick Stormcloak victory, which means both sides can begin rebuilding their strength and the Thalmor get kicked out of Skyrim sooner rather than later.

I have to wonder what the Thalmor might have had up their sleeves at Helgen. Clearly they did not want to see the war come to such an abrupt end, but their own classified documents indicate that the dragon attack was completely unexpected and they had nothing to do with it (which later events would seem to confirm). I can't stop thinking about whether or not they actually had their own plan for mucking up Tullius' big day, and - if so - what that plan was.

I think they had probably left some stormcloaks an anonymous letter regarding Ulfric's capture and how to get into helgen's keep and possibly crash the execution. There seem to be way too many of them if you follow Hadvar instead of Ralof.(Unless there was a prison escape of some sort)

Well, they did say something about Helgen being a close call, and that whatever big thing they were planning so they could free Ulfric was about to be enacted when the dragon attacked. A prison break sounds likely, since I remember seeing alot of empty cells.
That is all speculation, obviously, since the Thalmor never explain which would hurt them the most. An Imperial victory can be just as damaging, depending on when they attack the Thalmor and the effects the situation in Skyrim has had on the Imperial leadership and military.

Ignore...

Points, not necessarily to the above, but to other topics like these and arguments in general:

• Torygg and Elisif are set to use the default complexions for their race, which puts their ages at about twenty. Not a child, but far younger than Ulfric regardless.
  
• It was not strictly necessary for Ulfric to end Torygg's life.
  
• The Moot is not an adequate judge of who "ought" to rule Skyrim, despite tradition; whichever side wins has replaced dissent with Jarls of their own choosing.
  
• All Dunmer in Windhelm are employed and housed; Ulfric, according to a (what I consider to be outdated and misinterpreted decree*) does not "owe" them, but what the Dunmer are concerned about is more to do with the fact that they live in a (comparative) slum despite their earnings, and are subject to mistreatment on the part of the Nord ruling elite.
  
• Many assume that the Argonians and Dunmer in Windhelm would be at each other's throats, but this is not supported by dialogue in-game.**
  
• Niranye's statement ("...too proud to understand the way things truly are...") is often, I feel, read incorrectly. Combined with the line above it, Niranye seems to be making a point about the profitability of illegal activity, not about the Dunmer themselves.
  
• I feel that to attempt to mitigate the downsides of either side is foolish and destroys the intent of the presentations of the factions.

*The document, to me, reads as though it applies should the Dunmer create their own independent residence, not should they choose to settle in a city. I believe the document is verbatim from one of the novels, which makes it some 160-years old, and considering that it's found in a ruined tower infested by ice wraiths -- compare Gjukar's Monument, which is free of vermin and well-maintained -- makes it seem outdated.
**Copied here for reference:

Scouts-Many-Marshes: "Why do the Nords bother you so much, Ambarys?"
Ambarys Rendar: "Why do you even need to ask? They treat your people as bad as they do mine."
Scouts: "I think that's just their way. The Nords don't like anybody who's not a Nord, but they're not bad people, deep down."
Ambarys: "Look around you. Don't you know what their little war is about? They want all non-Nords out of Skyrim. That means you and me."
Scouts: "Oh, I doubt that very much. Who would load their ships, then?"
Ambarys: "Just you wait and see."

***

Ambarys: "How much do they pay you per day?"
Scouts: "That's really none of your business..."
Ambarys: "How much?"
Scouts: "Eight septims per day***, plus lodging."
Ambarys: "Eight septims for breaking your back, and then you live in squalor. How much is your dignity worth?"
Scouts: "If it's all the same to you, Scouts-Many-Marshes prefers to eat and drink in peace."
Ambarys: "Sorry, my scaly friend, you've come to the wrong place. Around here we don't ignore what's happening in the world."

***

Aside from the above, there is also the relationship between Sondas Drenim (Drenim being an exclusively Telvanni name, according to Morrowind) and Derkeethus in Darkwater Crossing.


***For comparison, a quote from Oblivion: "...they charged me five gold for littering... I barely make that much in a year..." This line was, however, loosely filtered, and could be spoken by merchants and publicans with single stock costing over five gold; could also be uttered by Voranil, host of parties between the wealthiest citizens of Cheydinhal.

I have not mentioned any other race besides the Nords in this thread.


You are sounding just like Ulfric and his dog. Even Hitler had enough sense to leave Switzerland alone during the 2nd World War.

Well, technically Swiss banks were storing their loot.

Actually, they were keeping it for themselves.

your an imperial, she was a corrupt imperial, you think she is everything wrong with the empire, people say "empire svcks this" and "empire svcks that" and you simply reply "they are corrupt and their in-just actions will catch up to them".

seriously, it sounds to me like you aren't roleplaying from your characters point of view, but rather trying to force your own point of view into a character that completely contradicts it.

i like to just ignore the empire and let karma [censored] them up

same for ulfric, he'll get whats coming to him in the end

somehow they insisted in making both sides complete jackasses

That I belive is the best way to look at it.

Wish I could have honestly dismantled both parties.

I like Hodvar, he seems genuinely upset that you are to be executed, and that's why I join him at the beginning.

I'd never do the Civil War story before the Dragon related quests anyway, and by that point you see the Storm Cloaks 'true nature'.

Not that I particularly like the Empire either, I just can't support the Stormcloaks xenophobic attitudes.

Easily, I never join the Stormcloaks.

After Helgen I go do my own thing and when my character learns more about the land and its politics its not hard to choose Imperial.
Mainly because I really cant stand Ulfric, hes a thirteen a dozen warlord who cares for nothing but his own power.

i choose neither side and kill all the imps and stormcloaks i find...more fun that way. As for an RP answer...the Dohvakiin just doesnt give a [censored]

Does nobody dumping out all this 'racism' on the Stormcloaks care that there are tensions between the Dunmer and the Argonians that would perha[s make things a little akwards if they were to mix? That 'Dunmer of Skyrim' calls for the extermination of the Nords and taking over their lands? That the barkeep in the Grey Quarter has an Imperial Legion uniform on his upstairs shelf? That one of the Dunmer notes hard work is the way to earn the respect of the Nords - implying the Dunmer have been the arrogant and entitled people they were back in Morrowind? That the khajiit are in the pocket of the Thalmor?

That there is an ALTMER woman, two in fact, that live in the city - one of which has a stall and basically says she isn't treated like the Dunmer and its because they won't integrate? That if you play as any race, including Dunmer and Altmer, you can fight for the Stormcloaks and basically become their second greatest hero? That if Ulfric was actually racist he could have already kicked the Dunmer out of their Grey Quarter?

You really think if an Altmer Dovahkiin ends up becoming the second most important hero of the Stormcloaks, Ulfric is really going to turn around and say "Sorry, lol, you gotta leave."

Ulfric makes it clear - he hates the Thalmor, and thinks the Empire is on life support. I tend to agree with him. I also think that in an honour duel between a Jarl and King designed by its nature to winnow out weak Kings in a warrior culture... it was fine for Ulfric to use the voice. There was NOTHING stopping Torygg from learning the Thu'um with the Grey Beards. Many of the great Nord heroes and Kings had it. Ulfric was the stronger, as an experianced vetran and as someone with the Voice, and would be better at the head of a Nord army than the former King. He proved that, and thats what that duel is about. It may be harsh, it may not be 'fair', but thats the actual point. Torygg was a puppet King - just as Elisef would/will be a puppet Queen. This is shown when she tries to speak up at the summit, and Tullius tells her off, since they had agreed that he would handle it.

The Stormcloaks may have racists amonst them but so does every race in Tamriel. Bosmer hate Khajiit. Altmer hate everyone. Dunmer see everyone as mongrels. Everyone looks down on the beast races.

People are looking at the Stormcloaks, again as mentioned about, through our over-sensitive and (in my view corrupting and twisted) politically correct view. They are Nationalists at their core. If you pull your weight and don't infringe on their culture, you are welcome in Skyrim as another race. The fact there are even Elves allowed in Stormcloak cities is a concession, considering their history. Yet, they are more than allowed, and if they choose to integrate and pull their weight they have a place.

Also, people who state that Skyrim needs the Empire, and will fall without them. Two points. One, a metagaming point, in that do you really think Bethesda would make a choice that led to a 'bad end' or even really change how things turn out? Ultimatly we are goign to get the same result whether we pick Imperial or Stormcloak, whether it turns out to be victory or loss. Second, Skyrim has repulsed the combined forces of Hammerfell and High Rock before. Let me restate this; the Nords have beaten both the Redguards and the Bretons at the same time. Considering in this struggle these two provinces may infact end up allies, I really don't fancy the chances of the Thalmor who were also bloodied in the Red Ring. Nor does Ulfric ever say he won't work with remaning Imperial forces when the time comes or even be an ally of the Empire. He just doesn't want Skyrim under the thumb of the Thalmor wandering its hills and killing its Sons and Daughters.

Just my thoughts and observations.

That Imperial uniform belongs to the Guard of the East Empire Trading Company, who also happens to reside there, but doesn't show up till you do the quest for the company.

The Dunmer HAVE integrated. They are part of every facet of society in Windhelm, save the political arena. They own shops, farms, bars, they run the trade, they raise Nord children.


Actually, I'm pretty sure the Greybeards select their students. Ulfric was chosen as a child to become a Greybeard, and that's why he was trained in the art of the Thu'um. In exchange, he was supposed to stay up in High Hrothgar for the rest of his life following the Way of the Voice.

Cool, thanks for correcting me on a few of these points. I'm firm in my opinion, but have no problem being wrong. Just pointing out my observations.

Indeed, some have integrated, in the same way as the Altmer woman. Yet, people use the Grey Quarter and 'opressed' Dunmer that balk at not being handed the key to the city as one of the mainstays of the racism claim. One that i've noted I couldn't disagree more with. And cited examples of others doing fine, which has been added to.

If that is the case with Ulfric and the Grey Beards that again is pretty grim, if Torygg couldn't learn it, but still doesn't change the general point. That duel was always about weeding out weak Kings, and Ulfric made an example in true Nord tradition.

Another is the fact that Ulfric sends aid if a Nord village or caravan is attacked, but not those of other races. Thats not nice, but I still don't call that racist. It's the one area I will agree is pretty grey, but I wouldn't call it racist. Now, if he taxed them and seized goods for the Nords from them himself. Simply withholding aid is a different matter.

As Jarl it is ultimately Ulfric's responsibility to maintain law and order within the Hold of Eastmarch. Refusing to send aid for travelers and merchants in his Hold makes Eastmarch a more dangerous place for everyone. The bandits are emboldened by this, and might consider a raid on Kynesgrove or Dark Water Crossing, figuring that since Ulfric didn't go after them before, he might not again. Whether such actions are racist are not is irrelevant, it's a sign that he's an ineffective ruler, and the last thing you should make yourself look like when you're staging a coup is an ineffective ruler. He refuses to maintain law and order in his Hold, or even his own city (racial tension aside, there's a serial killer running around Windhelm when you first show up).

Ulfric may have power, but he doesn't know how to use it. He can show it off, but that's not the same thing. I don't see any real managerial acumen in him. He's a war dog, not a king. He can lead, but not rule, so let him lead the warriors. Make him the general of Skyrim's armies, and let him go to war with the Thalmor.

I agree 100%