Completely agree.

To illustrate how silly the mini-game is when it offers no real challenge and players work around it by save/load spam. If you are having to do that, it is the system that is flawed. They need to make it a skill check (ie each tier of lock requires a certain skill level to open - without this silly mini-game feature since it is POSSIBLE to succeed with a skill of 1.) I think the classic approach is the best approach. I want to partake in combat, not have to waste a few minutes every time I see a locked object. This is why I have resorted to console opening everything as it just got annoying and cumbersome due to lockpicking being trivial.

Your wrong about it being all luck. it requires a certain ammount of foresight.

I like Skyrim's lockpicking better, but the master locks are completly unrealistic, if you're in the wrong place and move just a tiny bit the lockpick will break. I know its a game but come on, that's not challenging it's just madness.

It's not madness - it is challenging. I have opened master locks with 15 lockpicking skill. It only needs 5-15 lockpicks to do successfully. It's madness to even try with less lockpicks.

I enjoy picking locks. Other people don't. You don't like it, so you call it trivial. I like it so I call it adding complexity and interest to the game. Who's right? Having a preference isn't the same as knowing what's best.

I'm all for giving the option to people who don't like it to use an auto-pick. In all the years I've been playing ES games I don't think I've ever worked around a lock using a save/load spam. Probably because I enjoy picking them. (I know I've done that to get through a tough battle or two, but I was young and foolish then.)

Personally, I'd hate it if you needed an arbitrary level to pick a lock. It destroys reason for the sake of gameplay. I think there are a number of ways they could make the locks harder to pick for people who enjoy the challenge and at the same time make the perks worth investing in. They could do that and provide an auto-option for other people. Everybody wins. No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

And btw, console opening just sounds a lot more annoying than picking a lock. I'm glad I don't suffer from that.

Don't you try to put RPG stuff into our RPG brah!

Putting character skill over player skill? Heresy in modern "RPG's".

the lockpicking in skyrim is in no way "adding" anything as far as innovation is concerned. and, it's ridiculously far away from adding any "complexity" to the game.

it has regressed.

Thanks for sharing your opinion. Hope you don't confuse it for a fact.

oh, it's fact. and, your welcome.

I prefer the Skyrim version, simply because I was terrible at the Oblivion minigame...

Still waiting for that mod that allows me to open locks by bashing them open, although I'm not sure how that could be applied without attributes.

I prefer the Oblivion system a bit more. I feel that Skyrim's lockpicking system works great, but it's (to me) better suited for Fallout instead of TES.

So you're saying that the system is flawed because YOU (Emphasis on YOU) have to save/reload spam to successfully open locks? Honestly, the only thing flawed here is YOU. Emphasis on YOU.

If you want to partake in combat and not have to waste a few minutes every time you see a locked object because YOU are not good at picking locks, then why don't you... lets see... move on and leave the locks be? It's not mandatory to pick every lock you see. Especially if it's that cumbersome to YOU.

I'll be honest with you, it just sounds like YOU ... emphasis on YOU ... svck at picking locks. That's the reason why you've resorted to using the console to open everything. Although it's quite funny how you try to justify it.

And in the spirit of making silly demanding statements, YOU need to find a new RPG to play if you don't find The Elder Scrolls series to your liking.

I am pretty suprised people found Oblivions system harder, in Skyrim atleast i break lockpicks when picking locks.
There was a trick to it in the previous game where you could listen for the right click, and/or wait for the pick to slow down and just time it to open a master lock at any lock picking skill.
In Skyrim i'll probably go through a million picks trying to get a master lock up at low skill levels.

I only reload if I get killed and if I accidentally kill my Follower. I don`t reload for something minor like failing lockpicking. If I lose all my picks (as I`ve done in the past) I live with it.

I prefer stabbing the door with my lock pick

in all seriousness though I prefered Oblivion's style, it could either test my skill or my character's skill (auto attempt)

From what? Certainly none of the other TES games.

Mechanically, the lockpicking minigame is consistent with the rest of the game. It's possible, with enough Player Skill, to take out a Giant with a level 15 One-handed skill without any perks, using a sword in straight-up melee combat, on Master Difficulty. It's also possible to open a Master Lock at any lockpicking level, but it does become easier and more reliable as you improve your character's lockpicking skill and perks.

Likewise, if you're not prepared, or lack player skill, you're more likely to end up in the Stratosphere when you try to take on a giant without enough skill.

The problem with a "Static" skill check, as one person suggested, is that it's just that - Static. There's no challenge at all. It would be mechanically similar to having combat simply compare your weapon skill vs. the enemy weapon skill, and automatically kill people less skilled than you, and automatically kill you against enemies more skilled than you.

The only thing that would make lockpicking better is if it were in real-time - If you had to hurry to be able to pick a lock before you're detected, those perks that make lockpicking easier would make it faster by extension, and make it much more meaningful.

it hasn't added anything because oblivion already had a lockpick mini-game.
it's regressed because perks are not needed to actually open increasingly difficult locks. as well, in oblivion you could auto-attempt (in-game skill) vs. realtime (player skill.) it depended on my gameplay choice. making lockpicking easier and more accessible and combining it with less choice is not adding complexity or innovation or advancing what has already been done. that is fact.

i could also state an inferiority argument (morrowind/oblivion/fallout2 systems vs skyrim) and just label it as an "in my opinion" viewpoint.

regardless, i like the mini-game and only wish they would have made the perks more meaningful and advance the development of what has already been laid out in those previous 3 titles.

Well, removing the mini-game removes complexity from the game. At least, that's the general consensus on these forums. If anything, no matter how stupid or redundant is removed from a game, the game has been dumbed down, right?

My point is that having a lockpicking mini-game is more complex and innovative than not having one. You're right, Oblivion had one. It was more complex and innovative than not having one. Having a stat-based lockpicking mechanic that doesn't use a real-time mini-game is less complex because it consists of nothing but a look-up table. There is absolutely no challenge or involvement from the player. It is entirely passive. There is absolutely no way that you can claim that a real-time mechanic is easier and more accessible than a button that says: "Do it for me."

That doesn't mean you can't prefer it, and that doesn't mean it shouldn't be there as an option, but there is just no way you're going to convince me that it is more sophisticated, complex or immersive than a real-time system. So what if anybody can pick a lock regardless of their skill level. How is that any less logical than an arbitrary skill requirement? Why can't anybody try to pick any lock regardless of its complexity? The mechanic needs to be made more robust so that picking hard locks is hard, that's all. And imposing arbitrary skill requirements isn't the way to do it. A little message on the screen that says: "You need a skill of 50 to pick this lock" is functionally equivalent to the message "You can't go this way." They serve the same purpose and produce the same effect. If the player finds the mini-game too hard, they just need a "Do it for me" button that uses the skill lookup table instead. There, everyone's happy.

Well, the perks are nominally useful, especially for those who lack the fine dexterity skills to fiddle with the locks - I think it may be harder on X-box than PC.

The auto-attempt thing seemed to err on the side of "Break My Lockpicks, please" in Oblivion - Even with an "Expert" lockpicking skill (75+), I still broke several lockpicks on "Very Easy" locks. Skyrim has done a much better job with merging player and character skill - The higher your lockpicking skill, the more wiggle-room your lockpicks have before they break, and the more durable the picks were... both making it easier to open locks as your skill increased.

Having too many lockpicks is a balance issue caused by an overabundance of the damn things - A comparable combat situation would be swimming in Healing Potions to the point that ALL encounters become auto-win tedium, with the difference between a fight with a Mudcrab and a Giant being the number of times you push the Health Button hotkey.

i'm not advocating the removal of the mini, at all! but, to treat the skill of lockpicking like it's a combat skill that anyone can use like swinging a weapon or holding a shield makes no sense. i'm talking about treating it like the skill it is and has been in past games. i'm talking about further developing the lockpicking mechanism within a game. with no lockpick leveling the ease of opening a lock with the real-time mini renders it useless and a regression.

i have no problem with someone without any lockpick leveling attempting to open a master lock, but, they better break the pick (and eventually lock) at a super high %. the mechanics of a real-time mini just doesn't allow for that to happen and makes it a worthless skill that could have been dumped without any relevant change to the game (due to the relatively useless perks).

at a minimum, they should have added penalties to the gameplay to counter the real-time mechanic.

Except it IS a low % chance to open a master lock at low lockpick skill - I've spent more than 20 lockpicks just trying to find the general whereabouts of the target position on one lock, and twenty more trying to get the exact seconds-of-the-angle right.

Lockpicking is like every other skill in the game - Anyone can do it, but masters have an easier time with it than the rookies.

The "penalties" to the game is the distressing loss of lockpicks on failure.

Two systems could have improved lockpicking - Fewer lockpicks available, and leaving the game running while attempting to pick the lock.

It's not a regression from Oblivion. It's not really a regression from Morrowind or Daggerfall, rather different and more suited to today's technology as opposed to the technology present when Daggerfall was being developed.

Lockpicking gets easier as you increase in skill and if you decide to put perk points into it. That's a fact. If lockpicking is already easy for you to do without spending perk points in it, more power to you. However, there are some folks who find the mini-game rather difficult and they might appreciate the ability to make it easier, hence they spend perk points.

Different strokes for different folks. What works for you might not work for others. What's useful to others might not be useful to you. Toodleoo.

I like that it's more difficult in Skyrim. I could pick very hard locks in oblivion from the start without too much trouble. However, I wish there was a little more to lockpicking. Time shouldn't freeze when I'm lockpicking. The lockpicking perk tree is pretty useless. I shouldn't be able to duck down behind a stall to pick a lock on the surface of the stall, and no one notices because I'm "hidden". I wish all the locks didn't look the same. While traps make things more interesting, to disable a trap, I just have to... yes, pick a lock using the same interface. It'd be more fun to have more types of traps (the trigger itself, not just the effect), and additional traps on the lockpicking interface screen, where perhaps those traps trigger if you fail (or a chance to fail) picking the lock.

This is the biggest thing to me. If they were to make it real-time (Or even just slow time 25/50%), the added urgency would probably encourage Thieves to actually want to invest in the lockpicking tree, making locks easier and therefore faster to pick.