I didnt hate TES 4's system, but I like TES 5's better. It just seems more like lockpicking.

I find the lock pic mini game is more player skill based.
A lot of people seem to be having trouble, but i have no problems with master or expert locks.
i break less than 5 picks on a master lock.

ozi

Having the mini-game does not add complexity, just annoyance when one breaks yet another pick on a difficult lock. What it does add is player interaction, however I would argue that this is one area where less is actually more, since the odds of success should be based on the character's skill rather than the player's. Then again, I don't mind not actually seeing the interaction with the lock, as I'm used to it since many of the games I grew up playing didn't show it.

The problem is that adding player interaction with the lock removes the character from the equation, unless said player doesn't have good hand-eye coordination, and IMO (and I'm not the only one who feels this way) that's a bad thing, as it makes the character's skill level meaningless. It doesn't help that the mini-game is impossible to fail unless you run out of picks, since there is no mechanism in place to allow for the chance of jamming the lock, which means that having picks break is essentially meaningless due to how easy it is to amass hundreds of them.

Honestly, the only way I see to make lockpick perks meaningful is to remove the mini-game and allow character skill and ability (perks) to govern the success or failure of the activity, as then you'd actually need those perks to have a decent chance to open a Master-level lock without permanently jamming it. Concurrently with this, overhaul the loot tables such that the contents of a container are commensurate with the lock behind which they are sealed, so that there would be an actual impetus to try those same Master-level locks when one had a high chance to fail and jam the lock.

Its not even difficult in Skyrim, its the same lock picking mechanic used in the FO genre. And since I played the fallout genre to death I know all the ins and outs of it. Its not about luck its about not rushing it or you will break your picks. Not only that but there are actually visual markers for the areas where it would be locked. they look like dark spots on the lock itself and there are about 8 different ones, maybe more but no more than 13. If you press to hard on the anolog stick you break a pick, and im talking lvl 16 lock picking on a master lock. Lock picking is the most useless skill in this game because of it. i do not need any of those perks, ever. no one should if you want ill even draw a blueprint and tape a tutorial on how to pick any difficulty of lock in the game. It doesnt get hard. Hard would be that the chest gets stuck if you mess up causing it to be unopenable. In fallout if you tried to force it there was a chance that the lock would break and you could never open that locked object again. They should have put that in. But its not even remotely hard. Same difficulty as the oblivion lock picking.

Edit: Damn you beat me to it General Masters lol but what you said lol pretty much the point I was trying to make XD

Not true - The character skill DOES matter - I have a MUCH easier time picking locks on my thief, who compulsively opens locks and puts perks into the skill, than my Warrior, who only opens the locks on dungeon-chests and doors.

Would you like player skill to be removed completely from combat as well? How about spellcasting? How about sneaking?

Some people are stuck in the ways of old and would actually like to see player skill removed from combat/spell casting/sneaking. To each their own and all that but fortunately, The Elder Scrolls is not following that very aging style that was more there because there wasn't better technology to create something better (In my opinion). It's also much easier to implement random dice rolls than it is to implement something more involving, i.e. pickpocketing implementation of dice rolls as opposed to something better.

ok jackBaldy, go get a screw driver and a bobby pin and try to pick your locked door open? You cant can you? I know i can. Skill does matter, it makes no sense that anyone should be able to open a locked chest with dead bolts. Hell we should be forced to find the lock, ive seen chests in real life with fake locks and the real lock hidden behind a secret compartment to divert thieves. Both matter they need to take both into account.

And it does, quite well actually.

Okay, let me be perfectly clear about this: I don't think the mini-game should replace your character's skill. If your character is good at picking locks, the mini-game should be easier to reflect that. I'm pretty sure it's already like that, but it needs a little more juice. I also think there should be an auto-pick option. There's no reason to remove it, so leave it in. I also like real-time lockpicking. I think that's a great idea. I think traps should have a chance of being activated if you break a pick. I think you should be able to jam locks (and maybe have a perk to unjam them at higher skill levels). I think picks should be more expensive and harder to find and come in various levels of quality. I think trap levels should reflect the rewards contained inside. I'd also love to see Elven, Dwarven, etc., traps with their own interfaces. I think these are all great things.

I do object to arbitrary skill limits because they break immersion for me. They did that in FO3 and I don't want it back. I know why they do it, but I think you could achieve the same effect just by making the game more challenging. And it is exactly like swinging a weapon or holding a shield. I don't see the difference. If you let player skill determine combat, which is largely does, then you can't very well argue against it affecting lockpicking. Tell me that archery isn't determined largely by player skill. Your ability to hit a moving target has everything to do with hand-eye coordination and almost nothing to do with the character's skill level. The fact is there is never going to be a 1:1 relationship between player skill and character skill unless you go back to turn-based combat. The game just has to be flexible enough to make character stats noticeably impact your chance of success so it feels 'about right' when you play. There should be a noticeable difference between how easy a character with a 15 Lockpicking skill picks a lock and how easy a character with an 85 Lockpicking skill picks a lock. The mini-game wouldn't be worthless if it was a worthwhile challenge in its own right and it could be made into a worthwhile challenge with a bit of work. Just as real-time combat has been made into a worthwhile challenge.

Honestly? Yes, I would. It'll never happen, though, as most folks consider this viewpoint rank heresy.

Our characters cannot make decisions about who/what to attack (or even if to attack at all), what responses to give to a NPC, whether or not to unlock a chest/door, and so on, as that is the sole purview of the player. At the same time, it is the character that carries out those decisions, so should it not also be the character that determines the outcome thereof? A character with a low level in a given skill should be fairly inept at its use, but that is currently not the case because the player can override that at will. Hell, in combat the character's skill already means almost nothing, as basically all it is is a feeble damage multiplier.

I can see where being essentially reduced to a spectator could feel 'uninteresting', as I do like being able to aim for my Archers, but at the same time I recognize the fact that by actively participating I am marginalizing my character's skills to a large extent, and I should not be able to do that.

@The Magician: we're not advocating fixed mandatory skill levels, but rather that character skill level govern success rate. The suggestion I made allows one to attempt any lock at any skill, but if you try a Master lock with 15 skill, odds are very good that not only will you fail, you'll jam the lock in the process.

I hated Oblivion's lockpicking, for me it was so frustrating some times. I prefer Skyrim's much more.

themagician- i think we're basically on the same page. like general masters stated, a character's skill level should make a very tangible influence on the success rate. and, with failure, appropriate consequences. not just broken picks and a relatively worthless skill tree.

@general masters- i think i know what you're getting at, but, i'm going to assume those days are gone. and, from now on we'll only get the action-rpg's. i'd love to see some small company put out that type of rpg again.

Considering that the loot even in master chest isnt worth it,no,it wouldnt.

The best things are in the chest at the end of a dungeon and those dont have to be picked..

I can't live with it. I WILL reload and try again. I MUST know what's in that chest!!

Come to think of it, Morrowind's system wasn't bad if you want one without a minigame. It's been a while, but didn't you just equip the lockpick, use it on the lock and then you were either successful or not? I can't remember exactly.

Apparently reading comprehension is a difficult subject for you. I wasn't saying lockpicking is hard. I was saying that it is trivial. I don't care how good you are at picking the lock, it slows down the pace of the game having to go through the mini game everytime you want to unlock something, and considering how much stuff there is that is locked, that happens often. Further, the reason I was talking about saving/loading is to show how pointless it is to have lockpicking in or pickpocketing. It does not matter I have a 1% chance to pickpocket an item from an NPC. That 1% is a 100%. I just save and load until I successfully lift the object. That is just annoying. The classic Skill Check method is still the best. You either have the appropriate skill to open it or not (or pickpocket). If you do, it is a 100% chance if not it is a 0% chance.The reason I use the console command to open everything isn't because it is difficult but that it simply isn't worth my time. I know without a shadow of a doubt I will open it, might as well just pop open when I come up to it.

Cool story bro. You can't argue my post so you with some ad-hominem attacks instead of arguing my points. Herp derp.

Morrowind was the last game that had a real RPG lock picking system. Your skills, attributes, and equipment were all that mattered to picking a lock. Minigames take away all the RPG aspects of Lockpicking.

That is true, it's already like that. It's also much more improved from Oblivion in the sense that it's much much more likely for you to break a lockpick if you're of low skill level and the lock is a high level lock (Say a Master lock).

Sure the juice can always use a little tweaking, but Skyrim's implementation is a far cry from the hyperbole forum users are using here. Some people find the mini-game fairly easy, others find it extremely difficult. There's a ton of video tutorials (Youtube) on lockpicking for that very reason. Just sayin'.

This. What use is the skill when it's just a guessing game (albeit better than Oblivion's)

I knew someone would agree to those questions. You do realize that The Elder Scrolls is moving away from that style of game play because it no longer needs to utilize it? I'm willing to bet that the minute they find something suitable for pickpocketing that they will also reduce or eliminate the dice rolls from there too. Just my two cents.

I'm really trying to understand this perspective but I'm having a lot of difficulty. I know your character's skill level should be reflected in the ease or difficulty of performing a task but I don't understand how or why it's more fun for locks just to pop open when your skill hits a magic number or why you want invisible barriers around every other lock in the game. That just doesn't seem like fun at all. For the sake of realism I would expect at least some chance of failing or succeeding on each attempt, even if my skill matches the level of the lock. After all, no two locks are the same, no two attempts are the same, I might be tired, impatient, over-confident, the lock might be rusted, my pick might be defective, I might get dust in my eye, etc. That's all reflected in the player's ability to succeed at the mini-game; the skill level provides the baseline from which this variation springs. I guess the difference is that I like the mini-game and you don't.

For the record, every combat is 100% success as well, but I'd hate to play a game where every enemy I meet just drops dead the moment I walk into the room.

I`ve seen medievel locks in real life too. Not only are they very, very difficult to pick, (some of them nigh impossible) but they are incredibly sturdy too. I could easily see a broadsword getting ruined on one and even a mace might not make it through. But even if a weapon did make it through, you`ll have lost one weapon (maybe two) and made a LOT of noise.

People in the old days weren`t stupid. They didn`t design locks to be picked or easily broken in to.

Waiting for a mod that depicts this.

Oh and the `It`s not Earth so don`t compare` excuse I`m hearing lately is stupid, so don`t bother with it.

There's that 'real RPG' phrase again. I'm sorry, I must have a different dictionary. I'm a real RP'er and I don't agree with you, so obviously there's no universal definition for the term.

I like that your character's skill matters, I would like to have different quality levels for my lockpicks, and I like having the mini-game because it's more immersive than a lookup table. From my perspective, players who don't want that added level of immersion aren't real RP'ers, but I don't go around telling them that.

Apparently restraining from using ad-hominem attacks is difficult for you.

What you were saying was a far cry from it was trivial. The way I see it is you're sugar coating it with the word trivial. You bring up a pointless argument of save and reload when that same case can be applied to nearly everything, you might as well not do anything and play an "interactive movie" in that case. I heard they made a Jurassic Park game like that, you should go check it out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvd8pseTJ-0&feature=fvwrel


If it's not worth your time then why don't you avoid opening things via console? You don't have to open everything, so you're just using that as an excuse to "cheat" I guess. To each their own, but the way you justify it still rather funny.