Who cares what Autumn wanted? Eden rings more true to the Western Enclave's philosophy. The Enclave would have used Archimedes as a weapon. Autumn would be a defector by Enclave eyes, since he countered the Presidents ideals.

There is very little similarity, really.

The Brotherhood and the NCR were waging a war for dominance.....and Helios 1 was a legitimate military target, both because of what it was and the fact that the Elder of the local BoS chapter foolishly chose to make his final stand there. If you are at war with your enemy, and he chooses to mass his main strength in a indefensible position...the logical response is to exploit their mistake, which the NCR did and broke the back of the BoS in the area. The Courier learns that the NCR would have paid dearly if the BoS had been left to unlock the secrets of Helios and get the facility on line, as they would have used ARCHIMEDES on the NCR forces without hesitation.

The Enclave, on the other hand, did swoop in and steal PP from it's rightful owners, with the intent of perverting thier work into either a instrument of genocide (Eden) or the foundation upon which a fascist Dictatorship would be erected (Autumn)....just because they could. After they respond to even passive resistance by summarily murdering a noncombatant who presented no threat at all, James floods the purifier with radiation, resulting in his own death, so the LW and the rest of the PP staff could escape before they ended up like poor Janet. Autumn proves him right if the LW cooperates at Raven Rock by killing him/her once the purifier is on line.

It sounds like doing Yes-Mans questline is right up your alley then.

Pretty much. People seem to forget that the Enclave wanted to re nuke the wasteland and set up a colony in space, but their space ship was either destroyed, or never fully realised. The sources are oblique when it references early Enclave agendas.

You missed the point I was making, and that is the the NCR's actions are nearly identical to the Enclave in Fo3, but due to them being displayed differently one is 'good' and the other is 'evil'. Who cares what Autumn wanted? Well... that's a stupid question because it answers itself. Who followed Autumn over Eden when they were forced to choose? Oh, yeah.. all human personnel.



That's because Colonel Autumn is the only one to actually know about the FEV at all, there is no evidence that the eastern Enclave shared the ambition to kill all non-Enclave/Vault humans aside from Eden, who was unknown to everyone but Autumn. As stated above, the men followed Autumn, and Autumn's ambition was to form a government based on the pre-war American government. That sounds like the NCR to me.

I do have to wonder why the Enclave would seemingly neglect such a powerful tool as Archimedes, I mean, a laser from space, with little to any evidence of post-war Enclave occupation?

@Panda- maybe, but Autumn is still betraying the 'Enclave dream' by even CONSIDERING to annex the people of the Capital Wasteland into the Enclave, IE allowing 'tainted' genetics into their pure regime.

Our founding fathers weren't the ones that advocated expanding into the west. That happened almost 50 years later. Our Constitution and government were specifically designed to allow for changes because the founding fathers knew that they couldn't have covered everything but it was never rewritten. The Constitution is still the same document, just with changes (called ammendments). The founders knew changes were going to need to be made to expand on the Constitution itself and protect the freedoms of the citizens.

Our Constitution never instituted slavery or prevented women from voting, those rights were just not included in the original document. The founders just didn't think of those things and since many politicians later abused the loopholes in the Constitution, ammendments were made to fix the errors. To label early America as "evil" is a little over-dramatic. A better description would probably be naive... Maybe short-sighted in those areas.

Sorry, getting off the soapbox. What can I say? I'm a history major.

Committing mass genocide against the native population to further its expansion wasn't inherently destructive?

probably because a modified FEV introduced into everything's drinking source is a much more efficient killer than an orbital laser that cant even one hit a death claw.



No, not really. Ignorant and wrong perhaps, but was obviously beneficial in the long run. Otherwise The US would end at the Mississippi. It was a necessity, if we wouldn't of done it the Spanish or French would have.

Already did that once Colonel. I'm working on my NCR playthrough this time. Next is the Mr. House playthrough. Then the Legion.

By the way, can I call you Sanders?

No, there's another user around here somewhere called Colonel Sanders xD

In all fairness, they did generally ask them to move before obliterating them.

The whole Imperial America thing didn't even start until about the 1840's, over 50 years after the founding fathers started this nation. Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny

I wouldn't cite it to write a paper but it's pretty accurate.

Oh he won't know.

Who instigated the war? As I understand the history (I haven't done heavy research, so I could be wrong on this), the Brotherhood occupied Hoover Dam and Helios One, and the NCR decided to annex the two locations and that is what caused the war. The brotherhood then had the dam and solar plant pried away from them. If that is the case, the NCR's actions would be extremely similar to the eastern Enclave, am I missing something?

I'd also hesitate to call it willful genocide. Most Americans believed the natives were at least human.. more than could be said for their views on other races. Also considering anywhere from about 70-80% of the native population died before 'America' was even founded. They also had to at least sign treaties before they violated them in the 'name of the will of the people'.

No because the enclave wanted to eradicate all mutated life. The Eastern Enclave are the remnants of the Western Enclave, they are not mutually exclusive organizations but the same guys that were defeated at the Oil Rig in 2. Their prerogative will always be the same. Col. Autumn was a defector for lack of a better word.

In some ways...the NCR is a lot like the RW US of the 19th century, but the Federal government in the 19th century was a lot weaker than the NCR's central government, and less bureaucratic and incompetent. And pursuing assassination campaigns against leaders of rival governments...even if you were at war with them...was considered to be abhorrent in those days.

And neither of you see the parallels between that and the Legion?

Because those are broad generalizations one could say about most if not near all power houses.

Nope the Legion is delusional and are doomed to fail. Caesar is a Hypocrite and his legion are common raiders. I don't see how a barbarian horde could topple the west coast if they cant even take a dam in the middle of nowhere. A new Rome isn't needed. Caesar points out the negative of a Roman Republic but fails to mention all the pitfalls of an imperialistic one. If the original and far superior Rome of antiquity couldn't police itself at its zenith, what makes you think this Caesar can? It will become the same bloated overstretched empire that it was in the first couple centuries. The Auto Doc is the smartest being in Caesars whole camp.

Yeah, hardly any of the major powers today are innocent of those sorts of politics. The European powers were prehaps the worst. Spain and England have more native blood on their hands than we do.

No, just the Legion. The BoS(lets ignore the midwestern BoS chapter for now), House, the Followers of the Apocalypse, and almost all other factions aren't expansionistic.

That is exactly my point. If you believe the Legion are evil, yet; don't believe any of the real life powers of today are evil, then... well...
/wooooooooooosh

But if you believe the real life powers of today are morally grey, then.... you have to believe the Legion are morally grey as well.

A defector that had the support of every human member of the organization after openly defying his superior officer. Enough time passed between Fo2 and Fo3 for the organization to change. If the organization follows Autumn, he isn't a defector, he's the leader. Eden obviously didn't trust any of his human troops to put the FEV into the purifier, or he wouldn't have throw the FEV into the hands of a wild card that wasn't a part of his organization.

I thought we assimilated them into American society and then we moved them to smaller reseverations. And then we obliterated them.