The west coast brotherhood isn't the same bunch of boy scouts as the east coast version, they're a bunch of [censored]s who will steal your energy weapons or power armor, and kill you if you resist. The NCR is willing to steal and kill for things that don't belong to them, too... as evidenced by the theft of Helios One. Mr. House has you do some fairly dirty deeds for him, but he really is the least evil choice (in my opinion).

How, exactly, does the NCR seizing Helios One differ significantly from the Enclave taking control of the purifier in Fo3? Yet the Enclave was painted as pure evil, for the exact same action, because of the "OMG they killed mah daddeh!" audience manipulation plot point. Which, by the way, they didn't even do. James commit suicide to keep them from wresting the project from him.

Because the NCR doesn't want to use Helios to destroy every mutated organism on the continent. If the Enclave got the Purifier every person not from a Vault or the Enclave would die.

Look in his fridge and oven!

I find it funny that no one has refuted my opinion of Mr. House as the true 'good' guy of the three power structures. Apart from

Mr. House doesnt have you do anything morally questionable.

Haven't done his quests yet Colonel.... I used a flamer on him to advance the glory of Caesar.

I'm going to feel terrible killing him in my new playthrough tommorow. (I've sided with mr. House for my first and second playthrough, now I'm going to run the NCR route.

Thats not what the Enclave wanted either. The Enclave and its personnel, headed by Colonel Autumn, wanted to rule the capital wastes. Their plan was to monopolize fresh water and make the people rely on them for their basic needs. President Eden was the one that wanted to kill off anyone not born in a Vault.

The thing is that they aren't the same. True, I will cede the point that taxes are generally forced on the populace. However, I don't see that as equal to slavery. Stating the two are equal is a hyperbole at best. My point is that even if a government imposes a tax on it's citizens (such as the NCR), it's still a better deal for them compared to being an actual slave (like in the Legion). At least a taxed populace can still enjoy broad freedoms. A slave population always has a raw deal.



In that you are correct. I couldn't come up with a good word for that.



What I was saying is that any time citizens start petitioning/demanding goods and services from the government, the government will inevitably need to secure an income source to support it. This is in no way a justification for the government to provide whatever it deems necessary to it's citizens or declaring privileges as rights. However, if a population gains enough support for the installment of a new program, it will come from taxes. The government of a democracy or republic cannot do anything without either support for it or apathy towards it.



That is true, a government could fund a war through military bonds like we saw in WWII. The problem is that this sort of thing is costly... Not in a monetary sense, but in a logistics sense. If you wait until an army is needed to fund it, there's a large amount of time required to get up and running at full capacity. We saw this at the start of WWII. The Allies were woefully ill-equipped to fight a war wereas the Axis powers were ready to roll due to their military buildup. Sure, the NCR could adopt a policy of delayed funding a recruitment in order to cut the need for taxes to pay for a massive military, but at what cost? By time the NCR would be able to get their industry and military up and running on par with the Legion, they'd already be staring down the barrels of the Legion's guns on their border. That sort of policy just doesn't work in this situation. A standing army is sometimes needed.



Like I stated above, equating slavery with taxation is a hyperbole.



To say that a republic-style government could leap to seizing property like that is just that... A leap. In a world like we see in the 23rd century Fallout universe with everyone and their brahmin armed, it would be suicide for the NCR to attempt to just seize property. I'm sure there are politicians in the NCR that would understand that you can't tax a corpse. Any sense of slavery in a free-society is one that the individual puts on himself.



I think you and I have a different understanding of what morality is.



Actually that's more a defining characteristic of democracy... a populist democracy to be specific. I'm not deluding myself into believing that the NCR is some benevolent entity that only does good. My only point is that they are definitely better than the Legion. At least from the viewpoint of a constitutional consevative :shrug:

Yeah and once the Enclave had the purifier the President would of or could of used anybody to insert the modified FEV, rendering Col. Autumns prerogatives moot. Plus The Col. was the only person in the Enclave hierarchy that we know of that was oppose to using the Modified FEV. the Enclaves initial goal was and always will be to eradicate all mutated creatures from the wastes.

I killed Mr. House of my first playthrough and ushered in the era and government of Mal... The cowboy smuggler (He was a smuggler who was also a cowboy. He didn't smuggle cowboys.). Yes Man and I killed off the entire Legion and booted out the NCR. Mr. House just seemed too smug and arrogant for my tastes. I did feel bad about killing him though. Perhaps I'll give him a chance sometime.

NCR walks all over everyone they can.
But I tend in the long run to think of them as the "better" side simply because they are a bit of a democracy. A riddled with corruption one I would bet but there is a clear channel for new people to enter and it is more or less set up as the best of the current bunch to adapting to the future. The various departments it has more or less keeps it just barely in check. CL is guided by person, who when gone would probably be replaced by someone worse than he is until eventually it crumples under it's own weight...more or less same with Mr. House.
If you want longevity and something that can potentially adapt and change with the future the best bet seems to be with NCR.
Though I wish they weren't so down on the Followers of the Apocalypse because they seem like a good match up.

Oh well Mr. House is smug, but I think that comes from his position he's had since he was 22, and he was roughly in his early 40s around the time of the Great War. From a completely neutral standpoint, if you tried out the Mr. House route, he's actually a pretty clever and reasonable man.

The followers and the NCR? Nope, because

Here is my question. How is the NCR not unlike early America, like mid 19th century America? Expanding East instead of West, using the same "This is ours by right" mentality that our forefathers used. The Enclave may have been the true remnants of our Government and American zeitgeist, but the NCR embody the true Pre War agenda. So to ask if the NCR is evil one would have to ask if he thought early America was evil.

I'm not opposed to the NCR, but I share Mr. Houses 'look out the window and see where democracys got us' view. I just dont care about politics, to me the NCR aren't neccassarily evil, their just misled and unable to properly anolyze the situation in their interest, they have this 'we want it, we take it' mentality.

You can't compare being jerks about energy weapons with total fascism. You simply can't. It's absurd.

But to be more specific, the group of Brotherhood in the New Vegas area re largely harmless except for a small group of them who hate Veronica. Blowing up their base is an act of unprovoked aggression. It was even the old Elder who was responsible for Helios, not Mcnamara. The old elder who died for his act, with the new one showing no evidence of repeating it.

Yeah because the Mojave is like Pre War American wild west. Where the only security from raiders and Indians is inside a fort. Its like the exact same. If you were to head west you would find a very advanced society in southern California. I mean, they had working televisions 70 something years ago, think of were they are now. The west is definitely able to police itself more efficiently then the "backwater" of the Mojave.

You're right. Unless you mean the Enclave xD.

But in seriousness, the BoS arent fascist, their just an enclave that has a superiority complex of 'We deserve it because we aren't savages like you'

@Xarnac- Well my issue isn't their cowboy method. In a world where 'Stop it, that's bad' can't be said unless you have a gun or a better one. My issue is they go in with an oppresive 'Do as we say or die' method. I think they could definately be alot nicer to settlers, if they are friendly with the settlers, there would be more public appreciation of the NCR.

The BoS aren't the Enclave at all. The Enclave wanted to rule over the land and kill everyone who was different. The Brotherhood are at least content to leave people alone who don't fall into their purview, tech. Their entire fault seems to be a lack of ambition.

It's not so much they think the rest of the world are savage, but because they have a dedication to their codex and fear another war. The same kind of thing you praised House for. "Look where X got us." It was both a democratic and a totalitarian state (China) that caused the end of the world. But both sides had advanced tech. What House thinks is the answer to the problem is just the other half.

No, when I was speaking of the BoS, I meant enclave in the dictionary term, not the Fallout Series term xD.

You win this round, greenie. <.<

Yes, early America was evil. Our founding fathers were douchebags and our constitution was rewritten over and over for, IMO, the better. Our initial constitution instituted slavery by law and women weren't allowed any freedoms.

Infact, now that I think about it, Caesar's Legion and the NCR are basically two negative aspects of America's past.

That was solely Eden's ambition, none of the eastern Enclave knew about it. Autumn wanted to use the purifier to rally the wasteland to the Enclave banner and set up a new government... and when Autumn countermanded the president, the men followed him.

Yeah I caught that he was a genius and a business prodigy. I'm sure I'd be smug too. I mean, hell... I'm pretty damn smart, and I have a huge ego to back it up. If I was on par with House I'd be unbearable.

The thing is that I have immense respect for businessmen... Especially successful, perhaps shrewd ones. House fits the bill in that respect. My only beef is that I'm really into politics and I believe in representative style government. I shudder to think that a man, no matter how smart or qualified he may be, would be in charge like House would be. Something about that just makes me cautious. My real-world views are perhaps what skews me to the NCR or to creating my own New Vegas nation if that were an option.

LOL Early America wasn't evil. In that its actions weren't inherently destructive. They may have been wrong, naive and politically incorrect but they were not evil. Plus I'm talking about a civil war era America not an 18th century America.