Does any one else agree that this game is not as "morally grey" as we were lead to believe.

im am loving this game but it seems that Caesars legion are just as obviously evil as the enclave were.

almost every single Caesers legions ending dialouge is something like "(Insert town here) was razed to the ground during the Legions rise to power"

where as every Ncr ending is more like "despite being angry about more taxes, citizens of (insert town here) experienced increased trade and security"

(these are just generalizations, not the real endings to any settlement)

also almost every one hates the Legion. i can understand most people hating the legion, but it seemed all citizens aligned with the NCR.

I'd have to agree, It's pretty clear cut. :tops:

So far I have to agree. At the moment, the NCR are quite clearly the "good guys." Maybe not quite as clear cut as the BoS/Enclave in FO3 but I have yet to find a truly moral dilema with the NCR.

they talked about some of the soldiers abusing there power over the citizens. but i have yet to see anything like this.

i have yet to find anything really bad about the NCR yet either.

hell, i even got good karma for killing Caesar. and when i killed an NCR trooper i got evil karma.

I've talked to a lot of people who hate NCR but we are also on NCR's side so maybe they'll make a dlc on the legions side

The NCR is all like "I'll only protect you if you give me tons of caps I'm a greedy bastard OM NOM NOM!" the Legion is like "I'll torture and kill all of you because I want to take over the world MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!" I haven't really paid attention to Mr. House but from what I've heard its something along the lines of "I will make New Vegas awesome and shiny and New Vegas will conquer all. I AM AWESOME!!" They all seem pretty gray to me but the Legion seems slightly more evil while the NCR is a little on the good side, Mr. House dosen't seem to be trying to hurt anyone so I'd just say he's neutral.

Yup I agree they portrayed CL as just a big ol war hungry slavers.

I mean it only showed their military side and not their society.

Then again their probably all military.

Mybe if they didn't make all the women in the legion slaves it would be an all right place.

Hopefully in the future the Legion will go to a more republic feel to it and give citizenship men and women who prove their usefulness.

I wonder what will be considered canon? I'm hoping for a less war hungry Caeser and has a softer touch to things.

I too hope they expand on CL through DLC by traveling to the eastern regions and the grand canyon a bit more. Would like to see them justified.

There's some good folk in North Vegas and the nearby vicinity who make the libertarian/individualist case against the NCR. You have to assure them that you respect their independence. The NCR is a foreign government that's invading and nationalizing all the land. I'm not opposed to government, but would likely be an independent if I was living in this setting. The Nevadans have a right to form their own local government, when and if they see fit to do so.

NCR may not be as foul as the Legion but they're hardly exemplars of goodness. For example if you take the NCR route with the main quest you're basically given a list of undesirable groups to wipe out. This may reflect the gritty truth behind knights in shining armor but it's far from the romantic ideal.



I haven't done much with the Legion but it's my understanding that there are a number of sympathetic characters that temper the whole misogynist slaver bit. It may not make the Legion as a whole sympathetic but it demonstrates that a "bad" group isn't necessarily populated wholly by monsters. Similarly the NCR may be the most pragmatic choice for restoring civilization but their "common good" outlook has left plenty of individuals in the dust and there are some pretty nasty people from the bottom to the top.

spoilers to some extent.

Wow I think it's morally grey. Yeah, Caesars legion is evil but I thought NCR were a mix of good and bad. They aren't totally good like the brotherhood of steel as they would do so many things to piss people off like raising taxes and claiming the land is theirs and kicking people out. I completed Mr house first so I didn't do much in the wasteland so couldn't see the outcome for the other towns but I thought his was meant to be the good ending .

Yes man had a neutral/good ending, I thought his was a stand alone ending where you don't join any faction and the robots just protect the people and help vegas (ofcourse after kicking out all the gangs).

Since they took out the karma system for most of the part it was hard telling which is completely good or bad or which you should go with unlike Fallout 3. It was alot more simple. Here you can have so many endings as well. Fallout 3 just had 2 endings. Insert virus and screw up the water or don't and purify the water giving a good ending.

Listen what caesar says, something along the lines that an invidual's conditions dont matter as much as the empire's condition. Ie, you must be productive, no matter the costs. In that case, slaves.

Keep looking. They're there. In fact, try one of the quests in the areotech park.



The NCR's problem is corruption and the fact that it doesn't really care. Cass gives a good overview of the Legion and NCR from a caravaneer's perspective. Raul also gives a good overview of the Legion's more positive aspects. Basically, the Legion deals in absolutes and enforces these absolutes with incredible brutality. Deal drugs? Hey, we've got a nicely made cross just waiting for you. Not loyal? Hello lucky lottery.

The main reason CL seems completely evil is because they're being compared to the NCR. The NCR has its bad parts, but it isn't as outright brutal as CL, so people naturally slot the legion into the "evil" category in their minds and don't dig deeper. CL is gray closer to black, while NCR is gray closer to white.



I feel ripped off now, because I didn't get karma for killing Caesar. I got some for killing Vulpes, who was in Caesar's tent though.



I dunno, Donner. His obituary was written by House himself, so of course it's going to be slanted towards making House seem good.

You haven't done your homework on this subject, CL isn't nearly as bad as they seem in the game. Nipton and Nelson are examples and part of their scaretactics to weaken the morale of NCR troops. It's true that there are bloodthirsty and violent individuals in the Legion but if I remember correct Caesar himself said that those tribes and towns that peacefully join the Legion are left in peace and become protectorates. They can continue their normal lives in exchange for legion laws, taxes and new recruits for the Legion. The problem is that only example of this are the Boomers in game so you don't have any pre-existing examples out there.

My point exactly and Nipton was filled with [censored]s, powder gangers and jerks.
NCR executes anyone who apposes them as well. Remember eliminate great khans or use them as pawns. Eliminate the Brotherhood of Steel.
NCR only supports and protects its citizens. I maintained a mostly good karma in this game, but I lost lot as well.
The NCR also wanted to kill all the mutants in jacobstown.
And lastly they massacred a great khan village, men women, and children. There is no "knights in white armour" in New Vegas.

I'm starting to hate that reference...

I don't remember him saying any of this really.

I never killed Ceaser . But still would you really want to turn your daughter and wife over as slaves, they never give much dialogue on their treatment of slaves.(unless it involved torture and uncomfortable collars)

I bet they say something differently about the CL on the lore in the wiki and other places but in game is where it counts the most. And they just showed them as a bunch of over-obediant slavers. The only good points I remember are Raul saying the East was a ****fest and CL cleaned that up and the Merchant at the CL gates who says its easy to trade with CL troops protection.

And I was very dissapointed. (only thing I was really dissapointed about in the game everything else is excellent).

i know that the NCR arent "knights in white armor", but compared to the legion they seem saintly.

pros/cons
Pros
NCR.
-bring order and safety
-fight slavery
- equal rights to women
- increases trade in owned settlements (thanks to connection with crimson caravans)

CL
- bring order
-Strict drug control

Cons

NCR
- over tax
-sometimes abuse power
-occasionally corrupt government
- tries to expand to quickly

CL
-women treated unequally
-Keep slaves
- destroy all who oppose
-destroy independence
- treats non members with extreme cruelty
- treat own members cruelly (like the burned man, since he couldnt take back the damn, he was set on fire and thrown in the grand canyon)

overall the NCR seems like the lesser of the two evils

I don't think the Enclave is evil like the Legion. I'd say that the Brotherhood of Steel and the Enclave are on par with each other because neither really cares for anyone or anything unless it benefits them. The NCR is not good. They're more good than the Legion, but they're more of a neutral choice. I really don't think there is a good faction other than the Followers of the Apocolypse.

To sum it up:
Legion = Evil
NCR = Neutral
Followers of the Apocolypse = Good
Brotherhood of Steel = Apathetic
Enclave = Apathetic/Evil

Edited... Forgot about most of the Enclave's transgressions over the course of time. I will still go with the idea that most factions in Fallout are not "good". More are morally ambiguous with either good or evil tendencies. I still think that the Legion is evil due to the way they treat human life. Remember?

Bring order and safety? I dunno, you might want to do Cass' companion quest before you say that.

Also, the Crimson Caravan coming in is not automatically a good thing. Again, see Cass' companion quest.

And I'd argue against them ending slavery, given FO2 and their inaction in this game. Remember, in FO2 they turned a blind eye towards slavers right outside their walls. In this game, they watch Cottonwood cove but refuse to send troops to clear the place out because it's a low strategic priority.



You're forgetting how CL doesn't have as high taxes as the NCR, and how Caesar cracks down on corruption a lot more than the NCR does.



You should also add "destroy independence" and "destroy all who oppose them" to the NCR as well. Remember Bitter Springs? Men, women, children. Heck, remember that part in Boulder City where you negotiate with the Khans only for the NCR to issue orders that the Khans to be killed anyway?



Yes, but it's certainly not totally clear cut "Brotherhood versus Enclave" like in FO3.



I dunno. I'd say that the legion is neutral leaning towards evil, while the NCR is neutral leaning towards good. The FoTA are too naive for my tastes, and the Enclave is pretty clearly evil as an institution. Look at their actions in the games:

Fallout 2: Buying slaves to use as experimental test subjects. Rounding up people for a slave labor force to excavate Mariposa. Attempted genocide via FEV deployment.

Fallout 3: Burning people alive if they don't submit to "genetic purity screening." Attempted genocide via FEV deployment.

That attempted genocide really bumps them into the evil category, IMO.

What military force in history has not had some abuse their power? Anynone in a position of authority tends to abuse it.


Tony Stark? Is that you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD5qpp5eh8U

I don't see a lot of the complaints clear enough, I mean the actual Roman Republic weren't exactly the good guys of the world, they conquered, pillaged (forgot certain words weren't allowed ), burned down cities, and enslaved people...the "moral values" of that day were definitely tolerant of this stuff, including things as murder. The biggest crime of the Roman Republic was arson for crying out loud.

In the day in age of the game itself, the NCR controls the entire region has grip of the region, with propaganda for their troops and people, with people that agree and disagree with them. Now, talk to anyone who opposes the Legion, i.e. The Followers of the Apocalypse. They don't like the NCR very much, but they "know for damn sure that they would rule better than Caesar would." (Putting it in quotes because its generally their opinion, though my wording probably isn't spot-on to what they said.)

The Legion itself has some odd moral ambiguities in it. Caesar believes in protecting the Empire at all costs, and isn't completely bloodthirsty; if the town turns over peacefully, they won't be annihilated. They establish old Roman law in the forms of a Republic across the land, acting like the Romans in the process--sometimes violently taking down societies as a whole to extend the Republics grip. In all honesty, this isn't horrifyingly bad unless your morals say it is.

NCR is more of a double edged sword. They are corrupt, incompetent, and can't manage their government worth of crap like the Legions Empire can, but they have used so much propaganda and the usual political promises of peace that they have basically corrupted the minds of everyone else in the region, like a Nazi state, or more like what our politics can do to people who are [overly] patriotic.

Both have their strengths and weaknesses, though I will grant that the NCR have a ton more quests (22 or so?) the Legion has 4, but thinking about it it doesn't bother me because the Legion...well, they're in NCR/Vegas territory. It's not like they've established much beyond the fort (besides the conquest of Nelson). So hopefully there will be some sort of Arizona DLC with the Grand Canyon to quell our thirst for understanding and joining the Legion, if we so choose. But for now, my opinion that the game is pretty gray (though yes, somewhat biased but understandable in terms of actual political and social outlook throughout time).

The ending to that quest pissed me off because of how wrong (in my opinion) it was. :/

Well, it did do a good job showing that the NCR isn't all fluff and radponies.

Slapped the rose colored goggles I was still wearing from playing Fallout 3 right off my head. :sadvaultboy:

NCR did slaughter some great khan women and cildren.