So a while ago when THAT wedding was plastered all over TV I got to thinking properly, and I realised I don't feel any sense of national pride. Why should I be proud of where I happened to be pushed through a[n] [orifice] (by the way community team, I think thirteen year olds can cope with the mental image of the female genitalia)? I haven't contributed anything towards my country that elevates it. Why should I care whether England wins at football or retains the Ashes or are crowned tiddlywinks champions of the universe? Why should I give two [censored] about the royal family? Why should I feel proud that we were on the winning side in the World Wars? They've all got nothing to do with me as an individual. Sure, I'm incredibly thankful that I've been born into a safe, secure and affluent country, but I don't pretend that it's an achievement of mine or anything.

Following this train of thought I came to realise that the same thing persists at a more local level. Untold millions of people support their clubs in whatever sport happens to be their favourite. Grown men cry when Chelsea lose a cup final when all they've done is bought the shirt and watched it on TV.

I guess this mentality persists mainly among sport enthusiasts, but it flairs up wherever a group is supposed to represent a larger number of people, such as in times of war or with figureheads such as the UK's royal family. I just don't understand why people feel pride for anything that isn't their direct achievement.

So what about you, CD? Do you care what country the square metre of ground where your incredibly undignified birth occurred belonged to? Do you truly believe that the achievements of your sports teams trickle down to you to an extent that justifies such jubilation? Do you think that your country's "heritage" affects or should affect you in any way? Because I can't see it, and I feel like I'm either mad or the only sane person in the world.

I think I can understand why people have national pride, and in general terms, I think it's a good thing: it inspires people to band together and achieve something that is greater than the sum of its parts; I think it happens at all sorts of levels, and national pride is currently one of the better known ones.

It can sometimes become problematic, of course: obviously some people are inclined to take it too far and pride in themselves mutates into contempt or even hatred for others. I guess perhaps this is the difference between patriotism and nationalism, judging by the more common uses of the words. But likewise, too little pride in one's arbitrary grouping can also be fairly toxic, and certainly in the UK we've seen a sort of "inverse snobbery" in recent decades where it's seen as cool to be contemptuous of our own culture and country.

I guess at its best it can be a healthy mix of cooperation and friendly competition: at its worst it can be something terrible, and its absence can also be very unhealthy, so I guess as is often the case, a bit of balance is the best way.

That's it off with his head!

I can't really say why I am patriotic. I love England and I love my national team and my football team (Aston Villa FC). I don't care for the royal family most of the time but for whatever reason I felt pride during the wedding. I am proud of my country for it's standing in the world wars and am proud of my coutry for all the inventions that have been developed here over the centuries.

As much as I hate my country for many things I still love my country for what is used to be and what it continues to be in many aspects.

"God save the queen"

I am English and proud of that fact.

I am not patriotic, no. I don't feel I should be proud of something I had no choice in deciding to be born in. I am thankful I was born here, but not proud as such. Whenever I try to explain this to anyone in real life I get "WTF" faces thrown at me, like it's such an alien concept.

I do support a football club though, but I had a choice in deciding which team to be a fan of (AC Milan FTW!).

I think nationalism is stupid, except when it comes to sports, then it's just fun.
We're all from the same tiny planet, what difference does it matter?

Not really, I have no pride in my crumbling country. That said, I do like where I live and wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

Oh that's bad too. Again, it's lumping a huge group of people together and performing one snap judgement upon the lot. I would argue that opinions should be formed on a more individual basis. ie. the England football team won the world cup. The England football team is good. greatcarbuncle, an English person, is awful at football. However, there is no contradiction there because the English football team does not represent greatcarbuncle. It represents itself.

I'm definitely not one to praise everything my country does (or care about the Royal family for that matter), but there are things about my country that I like, and there are certain things and people that make me proud to be British. I'm sure if I was raised anywhere else I would have the same reaction to that country however.

Nationalism is primarily a tool used to hold a society together, mostly in a time of great need. Since the UK (or whatever it is you chaps call it right now) is not really facing any serious external threat, and your internal issues are not severe, it makes sense that there aren't any major pushes for strong national pride.

I will warn that the results of nationalism can be "good" or "bad" depending on your perspective.

But you haven't contributed to the success of either in any tangible way. Any contribution you might have made through monetary support is so minimal that (what I predict to be) your level of emotion towards each team's ups and downs isn't nearly justified by the direct effect you've had on them.

Again: their achievements are not yours. Why do you feel pride for what you haven't done?



Again, why? Did you contribute? Do you really think of the royal family as more than a family, more than a group of people?



Why? You, personally, haven't contributed anything towards either effort. The fact that those people were born on this island didn't change who they were at all. Their upbringing and natural talent did. Where they were born is completely and utterly arbitrary, as it is in you. Natural following question - if where great people and where you were born are both totally arbitrary and don't themselves effect anybody's achievements, why would you feel shared pride purely off the back of your nationality? It makes no sense.



Why would you hate your country either?? Your "country" isn't anything! It's a piece of rock! You can hate politicians, generals, individual soldiers, individual people, whoever, I don't care. But they don't represent you just because you're English and so are they.



You might see this coming, but whyyyyy?

I am damn proud to be American. And living in America. I love it here. Sure we have major problems that deal with politics and other things that can not be spoken on the forum. But America for me is the place to be. I love my country.

If it makes you feel better, greatcarbuncle, I agree with you completely.

I've got no national pride and I kind of look down on it and what it actually seems to spark in people. Nationalism leads to patriotism. Patriotism leads to xenophobia. Xenophobia leads to jingoism. That's how I perceive it, anyway. Any national pride simply seems as a barrier to divide people based merely on where they where they live or were born, in my opinion, and I don't fully understand its appeal nor do I really care much about anything promoting my country above any other simply because it's my country... one chunk of dirt separated from all the other dirt in the world by an imaginary, man-made line.

^ and jingoism leads to the dark side.


But why? Why does you being American and other people also being American matter at all?

Greatcarbuncle, I agree with you.

Greatcarbuncle, I think you put yourself down a bit. I'm sure you have contributed to society in some way. Even if it's just helping others, or voting, or remembering and honouring various achievements and sacrifices, you're keeping alive a legacy. It's definitely not exclusively British (many other countries do it too), but it's part of what makes a group of people generally good. Whenever I used to go to street parties I'd feel very fuzzy about being British - not because street parties are inherently British, but just because it's a great example of people getting together for whatever reason, sharing and celebrating something.
It makes me thankful for what I have, and the opportunities I've been given because of someone else's struggles and insistence that I should have those opportunities.

Like I said I really can't explain it.

As for all the great people that have lived and been born in this country there must be somethng about it that makes it's people that way. The fact so many great inventors were born here can't be coincidence. Charles Babbage and his difference engine and later Alan Turing who invented the first computer (which the Americans later stole) and despite what American movies teach you he created the computer that cracked the Enigma code (again not an American idea).

I know this achievment has nothing to do with me personally but it makes me proud that a fellow Englishman created it.

If Alan Turing was German he would have fought for the Germans because he would have grown up with a national pride for that country. Without his work the war could have ended differently, so the fact he had national pride himself to help fight the war for the English has had a direct influence on the country you are living in today whether you were impacted by it directly or not. The same goes for all the pilots that died for you and me in the Battle of Britain, that in one voice said no to German occupation beacuse they loved the country for what it was and not what it could have become, as well as a million other examples.

I guess it makes no sense in some ways but the pride is still there.

If the world was all the same then what culture would you like the whole world to adopt? out of curiosity.

If England won the world cup would you really not care even a little bit?

It has nothing to do with me but I will still be cheering on all the British athletes at next years olympics because they represent my county and therefore me.

Actually, countries are representations of one of the most potent natural rights: The Right to Self-Govern. Government structures vary depending on how many rights the people of said country have willingly (or not) surrendered to their government as power. Every single person has the natural right to govern themselves, or submit themselves to as much government as they deem to be necessary. Anyone who tells you differently is from the "Divine Right" camp (as opposed to the "Consent of the Governed") and should be cautiously watched ("Divine Right" holds that some people are inherently entitled to rule over everyone else, either because a deity gave them the authority or because the law does).

EDIT: I'm trying to keep this high-level and philosophical so that it doesn't devolve into (banned) political discussion.

The mandate of heaven demands that I be declared Emperor of Earth.

I am mixed. On one hand, I see my countries culture as superior to other cultures. But I dont give a [censored] about football or anything. Instead of watching why ot play, why celibrate and say your better than another place, you did [censored] all.
On the other hand. I hate my country. Great Britain hasnt been great for some time, we are in decline, our society is becoming worse with [censored] like tten pregnancy, chavs, etc.

I like the monarchy, but its for political reasons. (only the main ones though).

Ah, but it did. Not only were they born with the genetic traits common to your island, they were raised in its culture, gaining all the shared ideas and values of the people who live there.



The land is just the land. The country is an idea. It is the collective effort of all those people working and striving to get along with each other and accomplish something. I think that is definitely something of which you can be proud. Or hate, if you didn't like the direction it was taking.

I dont see an issue with judging groups. Especially cultures.

Some are just better than others.

Judged on what scale and by what standard?

It's just like this whole notion that you should support your family because they're your family. I see them as regular people. I'm not going to hand out free money that I've earned to them just because they're my family. A lot of people disagree with me about this, but I see it as another societal norm that is not for me. No reasoning beyond "because [i][we/i] say so" doesn't work for me, sorry. It's the same with national pride, you're told to take pride in being from your ( as I have experienced first hand ) town and state and country for no other reason than because they say so.

I agree our country is in a decline at the current time but I believe in a time when Britain will be great again. Chavs exist because of the rapping that has come from American culture, teen pregnancy because you aren't allowed to discipline kids anymore in case you breache their 'human rights' (tough love is sometimes best).

This country is being suffocated by too much crap from Brussles and from being run by polititions that have no idea what it is like to be a normal person. David Cameron is a millionaire for christ sake he comes from a wealthy family, why do people think he will understand anything about the ordinary persons problems?

The problem with Britain is people go to pubs and complain about things but don't actually act on what they think or want for fear of being labelled racist etc