Try using ice lance in dragons, for example, they'll fly slowly, or ice storm in melee enemies (i love this spell). In master difficulty its harder to slow opponents, but in adept and expert its a lot easier. Some enemies are too fast, so trying to slow them down is useless, like bears and tigers. With humanoids works great (unless they are nords).

Hmm, I play on Adept, but haven't seen a lot of slowing from frost spells. But I haven't used Ice Lance (which I'm assuming is a higher-level Ice Spike?) or ... well, anything higher than Ice Spike, really.

I'm a fire and shock man myself.

I'm pretty sure the he meant Icy Spear. At least, that's what it's called in my North American version--maybe another country calls it something else in-game (and I think Ice Lance sounds cooler).

Frost spells work exactly the way you'd like them to. Perhaps you should put perks into them (Augmented Frost 2/2 and Deep Freeze) and you'll notice a bigger difference.

On lower difficulties, even Adept, Destruction is good for, well, killing things. But against tougher enemies, you'll want to use certain elements for tactical reasons. I use frost spells on melee combatants almost exclusively, unless they're Nords, and I always avoid using fire on Dunmer.

Lol, who the hell said that destruction is underpowered?

It is so powerfull that i almost cant throw fireballs to avoid lydia's death:P (yeah, actually that is a really anoying thing, companions got affected by our aoe spells..)

Frost spells as a slowing technique is rarely helpful where it needs to be. So many things seem to be totally immune to the effect that I gave up on it. I'd rather use chain lightning against groups. Dual cast at least it will stun and it does decent damage to everything it touches. If you try to use a frost spell and something runs right through it you're screwed.

2 single fire balls does not do more damage than a dual cast fire ball. Where did you ever come up with that idea?

Tell that to the giant I just plowed over today

Ice Storm is amazing. It slows the crap out of enemies, far as I've seen. Firing off one after the other is great, they almost come to a complete halt (and they will, once I get the Deep Freeze perk).

For sure there are enemies that it can help with, however there are many that it doesn't effect at all. What level are you playing at btw? Just curious. As for the giant I can stomp them into the ground easily with dual incenerates so frost isn't needed there anyway. Go hit a group of Forsworn or bandits with Ice Storm and tell me how great it is. Anything with a Nord background will walk through it like it isn't there.

The Forsworn are Bretons, so they're resistant to magic in the first place. And sure, I've gone through them using frost. I don't see a real issue there. Outside of resistant enemies, I don't really see the problem you see with frost damage.

Also, I checked today, and it turns out I'm on Adept. I might crank it up a bit, I don't know yet.

Not sure about all the Forsworns but I had a Briarheart go through my frost and one shot me. My mage has no health upgrades and no armor. I can't take chances like that too often. I'd rather go with a sure thing. Impact always works when I want it to. Frost is very iffy from my experience. I don't trust it enough to protect me against high level creatures. My mage is 56 and I play on Expert.

56 and nothing invested in health? Your magicka pool must be enormous (and I'd think it superfluous, personally)! Yes, impact helps, but y u no Ice Storm? Could have impacted him with that and slow him down in the process, I'd say. It's fine if it doesn't suit you, but it's a shame that you're having some manner of problem with it.

But if it were me against that Briarheart...I'd just Fus Ro Dah, piss my pants, and run away. No way I'm fighting one of those guys up close (and on Expert at level 56) as a squishy mage

I'm up to level 20 with my current Necromancer build.
I enjoy playing this character but it's tough going on master where i'm effectively doing half damage.

My warrior at this level was a lot more handy in a scrap.

I'm not using illusion though unlike my other mages and concentrating on destruction and conjuration (reanimate only) for rp purposes.Consequently i rely on taking out one opponent and reanimating it to be viable.

At level 20 with about 360 mana and impact i can just about kill a bandit thug before i'm oom.

You could do well with Alchemy, good (or better) equipment, and staves. I hope those'd help.

Edit: At least you're surviving! And Alchemy/staves are great for when you're running low on magicka.

Alchemy is great for a mage it helps them across all skills, but its a crutch for destruction.
It is not usually a good thing for a mage to poison everything in the room and then start blasting spells, that is a good way to kill your mage.

Two things:

1. I find illusion to be pretty redundant with alchemy. True, both bring their own things to the table but the main reason I use illusion (invis, fury, calm) can all be achieved via alchemy. I wanted to incorporate some magic into my thief--mainly illusion and alteration--but like I said I found that I was forcing myself to switch between illusion and alchemy just so I didn't feel like I wasted perks. But by all means... tell me why you like this combo, because maybe I'm overlooking something.

2. Is reverse-pickpocket-poisoning (whatever that's called) people actually a viable way to kill? In other words, is it easy to pull off/relevant?

Some enemies resist the effects of ice storm.

thanks! its ice spear XD

I don't mean for the mage to poison everyone before he starts blasting away, I mean for the mage to use alchemical buffs before he starts blasting away. But when combined with effective Illusion, yes: a mage can poison someone, blast the crap out of him, and move on without anyone realizing it ever happened


1. I think you are overlooking something, friend. Illusion cannot do much of what else Alchemy does, first and foremost being a source of recovery. You can restore health, stamina and magicka on the fly as well as fortify both their values and their regen rate. Alchemy can also poison enemies with weakness to element/magic, buff your resistances, and fortify all of your skills, including giving a damage buff to Destruction.

That said, if Alchemy offers everything you want out of Illusion, then you go right ahead and forego Illusion, if it pleases you. Personally, I would prefer Illusion for its own affects put into AOE (because there's no such thing as an AOE poison), as well as having more intimate control over invisibility instead of relying on finite potions. More importantly, Illusion offers Quiet Casting so that my assassinations don't alert enemies. I would still use both Illusion and Alchemy for their own merits.

2. Yes, it is a viable way to kill, and it's easy if you can sneak effectively (via Sneak or Illusion), but I would sooner use it to debuff an opponent for an assassination than to kill.

Admittedly, it has limited to use to most anyone, even a Stealth Mage (in my experience). The only character I actually used it with was a Khajiit who was unarmed, and (slightly off-topic) this is where I found a lot of problems with the game. For one thing, you can't pickpocket in combat. How is a martial artist or an expert thief supposed to make use of that mechanic if he can't disarm an Orc before his battleaxe swing connects? Also, no buffs to One Handed damage, even the vaguely-written "double backstab damage" effect, affect unarmed. As an RPG veteran, I would have thought that "backstab" meant "attack unawares from behind," especially since you can backstab with a mace

Given the length of the thread, it's likely that you missed this, but it was discussed earlier that, for this build, it's probably unwise or just not useful for mages to go around poisoning things unless they have a weapon. Carrying a dagger or bow, poisoning an enemy, buffing yourself and switching to a powerful Destruction spell can all happen rather quickly, and the damage output can be enormous But I rely solely on the buffs. I'm still considering picking up a dagger, though I kinda wish I had used Conjuration for the bow.

As my character concept evolves, I find that I'm using Destruction almost exclusively, and I wonder if that is making a difference in the difficulty. I'm finding things quite a bit easier this time than with my previous mage, who levelled with Destruction as well as Illusion, Conjuration, Alteration, Sneak, and a bit of Restoration.

I'm still low level (8 or 9), and my Destruction just hit 40. I've taken the Novice & Apprentice Destruction perks, as well as Dualcasting, Augmented Flames, Augmented Shock, and Impact. The only other perk I've taken is the first Alchemy one.

Originally I was going to work up Illusion or Conjuration or both alongside Destro & Alch. But my character no longer seems like the Illusion type, and so far he hasn't needed any summons. I will probably still pick up a Flame Atronach spell at some point, but I could also just find (or make) the relevant scroll/staff without needing to invest in that tree.

I wonder if a lot of people find Destruction underpowered because they are using it alongside many other skills, which means their level will be higher (and enemies tougher) than the respective Destruction spells? There is no question that the Destruction spells are very Magicka-intensive, and similarly, whittling away at enemies' hit points isn't necessarily the most effective strategy - but this was (is) true for D&D as well, where (again) Conjuration is extremely powerful.

Anyway, with planning and proper perk investment I seem to be doing fine. I'm still low level because basically the only skills I advance regularly are Destruction and Alchemy - but that slow levelling is, I suspect, part of what is keeping things manageable.

Oh, and Shouts - since I've decided that this character is sort of a monkish, elementalist mage, he finds the whole Greybeard Way of the Voice thing quite intriguing. So Shouts will be part of his arsenal (as they can be for any character in the game) - especially Shouts that deal with the weather or elements - and that will take some of the heat off battles, since he'll be able to have some crowd control and use other neat effects.

I think you're finding Destruction more useful and more powerful because you're low-level and investing almost exclusively in it. If you spread yourself thin, like I did with my Dunmer in my early stages, you'd see a difference.

I think it's all well-balanced enough, because if you spread yourself thin, Destruction would be too weak for you to rely on it alone, and would instead have to rely on your other skills to compliment it (or it to compliment those skills). All in all, I like how investing in a skill makes you want or need to use it more.

Do you have any larger plans with your mage, or are you just going to work with it as you level up?

Well, I'll definitely continue to work at the Alchemy. It's levelling fairly slowly right now - I think my skill is 29 - but that's probably partly because I chose the Mage stone. I'm giving my Magicka more attention than Health, so I'll need the Restore Health potions, not to mention Restore Magicka and Fortify Destruction.

Illusion and Conjuration are both still on my mind, but I just haven't felt a need for either yet. The Conjuration I can justify since the Atronachs are sort of like elementals, which fits with the character. Illusion is a bit harder to justify from an RP perspective, but Aspect of Terror would be great for the fire boost. I just don't know if I'll be casting enough Illusion spells to make that a reality. All I've done so far is a little Muffle, but I'm thinking of disabling the compass and relying more on Clairvoyance, so that might help raise it too.

I'm not really touching Restoration, since the potions fit that role for the most part. Alteration also seems like a distraction from my Destruction training, and since I never want to be in combat anyway the flesh spells aren't very attractive.

The one thing I will certainly dabble in is Enchanting. I have been disenchanting a few relevant things, and pretty soon I may begin to make my first (no doubt crappy) enchanted gear. Having a bit of Destruction cost reduction will be nice, but I don't plan to get to 100% reduction. I'm carrying staves, so refilling those will give me some Enchant level ups, but I'm not going to go nuts.

As for gameplay, I've opened up the MQ and intend to follow it a bit, probably to the point where I get Clear Skies, as that seems nice & thematic for this character. I'm currently heading to Winterhold to join the College and go through that questline. My characters tend to only make it to level 20 or so before I want to make another one, though, so I hope I'll be able to sustain this character higher. I want to be able to use those Expert & Master level spells, primarily. Once I get to those levels, I can imagine that the boost offered by Fortify potions will be quite nice!

Yes alchemy is great to buff your mage across all schools of magic, in TES its something I have always done. With illusion in this game pretty much everything will bend to your will and yes its very easy to poison somebody who is calmed and its amusing to do so a great nightblade trick. I feel that alchemy is restrictions crutch in this entry in the series it does not stand well on its own especially at higher difficulties. I play on adept with my current character specifically because of destruction.

We need the ability and the option to have spell creation so we could tune the spells how we wish. So we could alter the magnitude, duration, and area of effect. We also need more spell types, they should bring back the older spells so our mages could even be more versatile and then we could use alchemy to supplement all of the schools without feeling like we have to.

I would love to see either spellmaking or just more spells - hopefully in a DLC we'll get that.

But, man, I'm having the easiest time of just about any character I've played so far with my pure destruction mage. I occasionally have to do a bit of running around, but most of the time it's just dualcast, dualcast, dead. Yes, I'm playing on Adept, but I've never played on any higher difficulty with *any* of my characters, even the melee tanks and thieves, and I'm pretty sure I'm killing things faster with this mage than any of my warriors. Bandit chiefs die in around 3 seconds. They don't even touch me. Playing as a warrior type, that would be closer to 10 or 15 seconds, and I'd be taking damage the whole time.

The only real trouble I've run into so far is Falmer and those ridiculous Charus things. I went into , and that definitely took some doing. But I never had to turn down the difficulty. I used runes, my staff of Flames, scrolls, potions to restock, and when things got *really* bad I'd call on my Flame Atronach. I know some folks will call foul, saying I'm relying on Conjuration, but my Conjuration skill is 25 or so, compared to my 48 Destruction, and Conjuration was totally unperked at the time (I have since taken the Novice perk, with the aim of eventually bringing down the casting cost of that Atronach). And even a pure Conjurer would have been hard put to it in that particular dungeon. It wasn't the Atronach that killed the vast majority of those Charus; it was my Destruction spells.

Maybe my opinion will change at higher levels (I'm level 10 now), but I really think the key to Destruction is... well, using it. Mages who spread out their skills will have to rely on those other skills more frequently, but a mage who is really focused on Destruction seems very viable. It takes commitment.

Obviously, you will eventually use other skills than just Destruction, but the aim as I see it should be to keep that skill well ahead of the others. Right now I am seriously working at Alchemy (a slow leveller - in the high 20s now), and putting a little effort into Enchanting (also in the upper 20s). I'll continue to call on Atronachs when I need a distraction (very rarely - usually boss fights involving crowds), so Conjuration will rise too.

It's funny; I really wonder if people who say "Destruction should be totally viable on its own" have actually tried playing a very focused Destruction mage. The impression I get from the Destruction critics is that it doesn't compare well to their other schools - which implies they're using it alongside Illusion, Conjuration, Restoration, etc.

For those extra tough situations, Those babies really kick butt and you won't have to put any points or perks into conjuration.

edit: About your earlier comment on Illusion, you only need 30-35 points and 3 perks to get AoT and to me, that's worth it even if you never use any actual Illusion spell.