I'm happy with my balanced magic mod.

I neglected alchemy and I fine destruction to be a fine school of magic. Though I do use skills to back it up, it can be a main source of damage.

The other direct kill skills (archery, 2H, 1H) have the following sources for damage increasing:

• Rote skill increase (5 perks each for 100% across the board)
  
• Stacked perk tree base perks
  
• Sneak damage (amp'd by sneak perks)
  
• Apparel enchantments
  
• Potions
  
• Power attacks
  
• Destruction weapon enchants
  
• Higher weapon material tiers
  
• Smithing

Destruction has the following means of damage increasing:

• Rote skill increase
  
• Higher tier spells with graduatedly worse damage/mana ratios
  
• Augmentation perks (6 perks for 50% across the board)
  
• Alchemy potions

Furthermore, melee weapons have a recourse after depleting stamina: plain normal attacks. Archery... if you run out of arrows, you just plain svck or are intentionally limiting your arrow count. What does Destruction have when you deplete magicka? Nothing. And in Vanilla, the regen rate is so agonizingly slow in combat that you either have to carry half your weight in potions or cover yourself head to toe in Destruction enchants to reduce the cast cost.

See the disparity?

meh, I did one mage out of 3 characters. Magic is just not that much fun to me in this game. I had a few in oblivion, it was just so much more customizable.

Aspect of Terror from Illusion adds 25% damage to Fire spells

Thanks I usually see two kinds of arguments: The faith/bandwagon based, which are easily recognized by their language and ignored, and a second, more informed kind of argument that, unfortunately, isn't thoroughly examined by the poster.


Firstly, where or how each skill gets damage increases is irrelevant. Weapons, for instance, get a +0.5% damage increase per point in the relative skill, whereas Destruction does not (you missed that, btw). If Destruction got an overall +50% at 100 on top of everything else it had, it would be overpowered. There's also dualcasting (which you also forgot), which functions as a sort of "power attack" for magic.

Secondly, mages always have options. Unfortunately, you've forgotten that mages also have weapons: staves and scrolls. Not only are these not governed by any skill (that is, it doesn't take competency in Restoration to use a scroll of Bane of the Undead to full effect), but staves actually get better if the user is competent in the given school. A mage like my Dunmer, who forgoes Conjuration, can easily summon a Storm Atronach if he happens across one such scroll (or crafts the staff at the Atronach Forge). Mages come across magic tomes, scrolls and staves the same way everyone else finds weapons: adventure, purchase or craft. We just have one crafting station (cuz we're so powerful, lol [not srs]). Also, mage weapons are affected by Alchemy.

Finally, regen rate for Magicka is slower than Stamina for balance reasons as obvious as why Magicka regenerates faster than Health. And for that matter, Magicka regen can be improved the most out of all three attributes. Offhand, I know you can get +460% regen easy: Master robes of any kind (150%), two ranks in that Restoration perk (50%; the name eludes me), Morokei (100%), the Apprentice stone (100%), and the highest quality Magicka regeneration ring available for purchase/that can be found (60%; easy to find at the Radiant Raiment). None of that is including custom-enchanted equipment.

All in all, I'd say Destruction is very well balanced.


A fair argument.


Actually, it just adds 10 points of damage to every fire spell. Still, that means the difference between a 90 point Incineration and a 100 point one, and in the long run (with things like Alchemy and dualcasting), that makes an enormous difference. It can also bring the basic Flames spell to 22 points of damage per second (single-cast) without even chugging a potion!

To be honest... i google it and copy paste... i'm lazy and i didn't know the exact damage myself

Ps i hope Beth don't fix that glitch

I'm not sure they can. Aspect of Terror adds a bonus to all Fear effects, and fire damage has a default Fear effect (that's boosted by Intense Flames, but it's still there without the perk).

Besides, I agree: even if they can fix it, I kind of like my fire spells being a tad more powerful.

Also, if you get impact, it seems to apply the augment bonus as well. My Fire Mage has the damages displayed as: flames, 27; fireball ,75 and incinerate 105.

That means dualcast impact damage of 59 for flames and 231 for incinerate.

Where did you get those numbers? That isn't happening to me, and it never has. Did you perhaps get Impact after getting Aspect of Terror, and could that have affected it?

On Topic: My Dunmer Stealth Mage is killing the crap out of dragons.

The first numbers, 27,75,105, are the numbers the game displays when I go into TAB/magic and scroll over the spells, not calculated by me.
On this character, I got AoT after impact.

Argh. If I wasn't currently running through the DB quest for the first time ever, I'd drop my character and re-build a Dunmer evoker.

ResidentPianist, can you describe a typical dragon battle with your mage? I love reading some good after-action reports!

Do you perhaps have any mods on? If not, something must be bugged, because, as far as I've known, Impact does not affect damage.


Note that I'm only level 21 or 22 with this character, so I'm not at my peak yet, but here's how it's been.

I start out with a few Lightningbolt spells before the dragon does a breath attack just to ensure that it doesn't resist, since there's a 50/50 chance it uses fire or frost. I endure its first breath attack, either shrugging it off if it's fire (since I'm a Dunmer) or chugging a Resist Frost potion if it's frost (since those ingredients are so common and I always have a bunch with me). Obviously, Restore Health/Magicka potions as necessary, and I also tend to have abundant Regenerate Magicka and Fortify Healthy/Magicka potions, which is awesome. Also, perhaps now's a good time to note that I'm working with 300 base magicka and the rest of my points are going into health, which I think now has a 120 base or so. An Adept Hood, a ring, and an Amulet of Dibella (I think) bring me up to 390 magicka and 130 health.

After its breath attack, I switch to the appropriate element (they're 50% resistant to their element of choice and 25% weak to the opposite), generally using Apprentice spells--Adept spells can be somewhat expensive at my level (though I can afford to fire off a few), and Ice Spike travels much faster than Ice Storm (not to mention that it doesn't freakin' dissipate in the wind).

I may dualcast to stagger the dragon during its shout, or use Fus Ro to interrupt it (no use in using the third word; just extra cooldown), but it's generally easier to fire off one spell in each hand since it costs less and I'm more likely to hit; whether I dualcast really depends on what's going on in the battle. Some dragons at my level, particularly Blood Dragons, can give me a hard time, so a +50% Destruction potion and a few Adept spells usually brings down their health fast.

When they're on the ground, I try to keep combat at a medium distance so that I can use gouts. A dualcasted gout with a potion bonus can be especially powerful, and the range is just long enough for me to keep it up if they try to escape into the air. I keep a Staff of Flames with me just in case (haven't found a stronger staff yet), and it has helped a lot.

If I can sneak up on a dragon, Marked for Death followed by a quick, dualcasted, potion-enhanced spell can deal a lot of damage, especially if, by chance, I use the element the dragon is weak to (remember, you only know if you're fighting a Frost Dragon or if the dragon already used a breath attack). If the dragon is 50% resistant to the spell, the ambush is rather lackluster, but damage is damage, amirite?

Currently, I'm pretty sure I'm playing on Expert. I changed it to that ages ago for my Khajiit, and the difficulty carries over to other files, but I'd have to check to be sure. Either way, it could be no lower than Adept.

With mid-level mages, I usually rely on Apprentice spells for primary damage and Adept spells for burst damage or necessary AOE. With higher-level mages, I rely on a mix of Expert/Adept spells (since Expert spells don't have much in the way of AOE, which means I have to go back to being accurate), throwing out Master spells when useful or necessary. A stealthy Firestorm can work wonders if you've managed to sneak into the middle of a Forsworn camp Master spells almost always require planning to use, though (because if they didn't, you may as well use other spells), and when you do use them, it can make a big difference. Become Ethereal, Ice Form, Fus Ro Dah and Whirlwind Sprint can help you prepare for them. Many, many other magics can help open up an opportunity, to, but I won't list all the options.

Nice.

Good to hear that the gout spells (flames, frostbite, etc) remain useful at later levels. With my first mage, I just figured they were passe once I could get ice spike and never bothered again.

Just lighting and texture mods. It may not be impact because I didn't notice it until after I got the second augment, impact and AoT. I have another character almost at 40 destruction (for impact) so I'll pay more attention this time.

Aye, indeed. At least with Destruction, I can't really think of spells that don't remain useful throughout the game, so long as you know how to use them. Admittedly (especially at higher levels), I use Adept spells over the Apprentice point-and-click spells because of their power and AOE, but they have their moments, too, such as when you need to take out a smaller, weaker target and need the accuracy or have to conserve your magicka.

Edit: I should note that it's usually a Stealth Mage type character who would need to use the Apprentice spells for such accuracy, such as in a situation where there are civvies about or if you don't want to alert other bandits by accidentally damaging them or throwing objects around with your AOE (especially hitting bone chimes).

At least, it has been my experience that Stealth Mages need to be more precise. Other mages can just blow stuff up indiscriminantly, unless you're, say, fighting a dragon in Solitude or something.


Okay; let us know what you find I'm certain something's amiss, because I'm on PS3 and those numbers are not available on consoles (at least with 0 or 2 ranks in the Augmented [Element] perks; I've paid little attention to what a permanent 25% increase in damage has done to the numbers before).

I'm currently playing a Destruction mage and so far it's been a ton of fun. I wasn't planning on spending any perks in Illusion, at least not until level 62+ when I had perked everything else I wanted. Is the extra Fire damage from Aspect of Terror worth spending 3 perks? Ten extra damage doesn't seem like a lot.

I've never used Illusion on any of my builds, but I've heard it can be very OP and highly useful when playing on Master. I play on Adept so I can't speak to that, but for those of you who do, can you shed some light on this? And is there room for Illusion on a mage build whose primary focus is Destruction?
This is the build for my mage I was leaning toward: http://skyrimcalculator.com/#98997

I think so. Don't forget, an extra 10 damage doubles flame spell damage and is really helpful in the early levels. Plus Illusion is super easy to level at the start.
Then, once you have your 3 perks for AoT, just one more for apprentice gives you enough calm for any normal animal in the game, also very handy at the beginning when you are surprised by a sabrecat, for example.

My first character was a stealthy nightblade brenton who put all his points in sneak, light armor, pick pocket, speach, alchemy, illusion and one hand. This ended up being insanely powerful as illusion + sneak = god mode more or less (I probably could of gotten away with no perks at all in any weapon skill). Dragons and some boss fights would still be a pain since i had no long range and my combat skills svcked (I only spent perks on one hand or light armor when I had nothing better to spend perks on). To make up for it I would make silly strong poisions that would take out dragons in 2-4 hits and during the civil war quest where i couldnt rely on stealth i used buff potions to temporarily turn my self into an unstoppable killing machine.

As a change of pace my second character is a pure dunmer mage that has all his points in destruction, conjuration, alteration, restoration, enchantment and alchemy and again I find myself being way overpowered in most battles with common enemies with just destruction and conjuration and using alchemy (poision tipped bound bow arrows and fortify destruction poitions) to take down dragons and other boss type enemies no problem.

Since I always use alchemy extensively (an old habit i picked up from morrowind) I have never experianced destruction as underpowered and I would recommend any one who can't download mods or doesnt want to to use it. Alchemy kind of makes any play style very strong and it gives you a reason to take the sceanic route everywhere plus its basically an infinate money cheat code.

Also if you are going to use alchemy you should be making your important potions in batches of 20-50 and keeping most of it in your house and restocking between adventures because you should be downing potions regularly in fights. Go big or go home with potions especially with multi effect super potions. I usually buy the whole stock from the alchemist everytime i walk into a town and make a couple of expensive potions in their shop that im not going to use to get all my money back.

To the poster that asked about dragon battles with a mage:

Another way to negate a dragon's breath attack is to use the ward spells. As long as you get them up before he breathes on you, they keep you safe as the dragon blows away. Also the Become Ethereal shout works as well if you don't use Restoration. I personally like to use wards with my pure mage though because they raise the Restoration skill.

First, anyone who's played the game for more than a few hours realizes that Destruction can be augmented by Alchemy. It's not a secret. Also, anyone who tries to use Destruction as a primary offensive weapon knows how underpowered it is without being propped up by Alchemy. This means that you have to carry gobs of potions around. And when your magicka gets high enough, you can dust off 20+ potions in a single round of combat. To get through an entire quest using nothing but Destruction for offense one does well to carry 40+ restore magicka potions. What svcks about that is the following:

1. 40 carry weight
2. Time in the alchemy lab
3. Money spent on ingredients: when you need that many restore magicka potions you can't count on being able to gather all of them in the wild. You have to buy out several different alchemists. This means trips to 3 or 4 different places.

Just to gear up for a single quest means spending money and at least an hour of real time gathering and/or buying ingredients, and then making potions. It's also worth mentioning all the doors you have to go through.

IOW, Destruction is a friggin' hassle to keep up. None of the other schools are like that. At every level there are spells you can cast that are effective at said level. By the time you're adept at conjuration you can conjure a flame atronauch it doesn't eat 90% of your magicka. By the time you're adept at Restoration you can cast Fast Healing and it doesn't take 90% of your magicka. Etcetera.

Right now my character has something like 84 Destruction, 2/2 enhanced lightning and frost, and the expert perk. I can maybe get off 3 or 4 thunderbolts that do a relatively small amount of damage before I have to open up the inventory and consume 8 or 9 potions just so I can cast other spells. And dualcasting? Forget about it. I have to bring out the battleaxe after two casts.

I wouldn't call Illusion OP at any difficulty, really. Get into it, you'll see; it's useful, yes, but not OP. Also, you can't be cheap with perks in it; you have to invest pretty much everywhere to make Illusion really shine. Just don't worry about the Master perk, as the Master-level spells aren't too expensive (if you're a dedicated mage).

And yes, it is perfectly viable to be a Destruction/Illusion-focused mage. However, if you're ignoring Illusion, don't sweat it: the extra boost from Aspect of Terror is nice (potentially great, if you make certain considerations and build around the fact that you're a Destruction/Illusion mage in the first place), but elsewise, you're not missing a whole lot


If you're talking about Destruction and Illusion not working well together, please refer to my OP on the Stealth Mage

On Master, Illusion is very good (as long as you can cast the level appropriate spells). Faced with 3 enemies you can calm them all and then attack whichever one you want while the other two watch. Just make sure you kill each one as quick as possible. Calm/Pacify doesn't work forever.

Woah buddy 40+ potions is probably a massive overstatment. Play smarter with alchemy. You can combine effects to make some really powerful mixtures and offset your magic drain with some super magic regeneration potions. Since you will be droping fools fast with fortify destruction you will spend more time out of combat so the regeneration potions top your magic off fast after a fight letting you run up to the next one. I personally know who im going to fire ball first before i walk into a room with the detect spells so i round the corner with the spell all readied and hit a nice cluseter of enemies and then me and my summons make short work of the surviors. You have alot of tools at your disposal as a mage to massively turn the odds back in your favor and alchemy is a huge force multiplier if you do more than just chug mana potions. Theres a whole lot of other effects.

Right, but consider that you're trying to reason with absurd claims in the first place That's why these arguments go nowhere.

We should just move on, though. Tell us about your character