My level 12 mage is currently at 35 in Destruction. Just last night I used nothing but destruction spells and a single conjured familiar (who died fast), plus a little running, to defeat a frost troll in a few seconds (fewer than 30, and maybe closer to 10 than to 20). I don't know if it was a full-strength troll, but doubt I would have had as easy a time were I a level-12 swordsman.

It takes me quite a bit longer to kill some other kinds of enemies. Draugr wights and draugr scourges, and sabre cats, can be real pains. I think boosting Destruction through Alchemy sounds like a good idea.

Destruction, Heavy Armor, and Alteration should work well together. I have successfully used a similar combination with fists and Shouts in place of Destruction. When doing http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u302/jmhepp/Dragon_Fight.jpg with blood dragons, I kept thinking how much easier life would be had I been attacking with spells (it also would have helped if I remembered to put on my helmet).

My own post just made me realize something. I do not use the overpowered skills such as Illusion and Conjuration, for the same reason I dont exploit smithing: Because it would make my game extremely boring. This is why I stick with destruction only, because I have to use strategy to take enemies down.

BS! I made a mage character. I put little into physical weapons, and all into my magic when leveling up. She gets her ass handed to easily when using magic. (As a damage source only, like a weapon.) If she pulls out her sword, of which here skills severely lack, she kicks ass. I do not use Smithing, Sneak or Enchanting at all!

You don't see anything wrong with that? That her lower skilled damage source kicks the higher ones butt? How does that make sense?

Destruction magic = sword/hammer It needs to be the weapon it's supposed to be, not the annoyance it currently is.

But, we'll have to agree to disagree as it seems this argument will never have a winner. It is what it is to whoever is scrutinizing it.

Thanks; that's a great way to put it. Obviously, I disagree, but it's all good.

Anyway, I just think that Alchemy is spectacular with Destruction; they, IMO, synergize better with each other than with any other skills. According to UESP, a legendary Deadric Sword, given 100 One Handed and 5/5 Armsman, has an attack rating of 72 (I'm pretty sure that's double the rating it would have sans Smithing, but feel free to correct me). That number (at legendary) is still competitive with higher-end Destruction, IMO (as in large magicka pool, regen, and Expert/Master spells), but obviously pales next to a fully realized melee build that includes skills like Enchanting or Sneak.

Alchemy, on the other hand, brings Destruction up to spectacular levels. I'm not so much concerned with magic beating out melee, because each on their own is balanced well IMO. What I'm concerned with is knocking back a drink and unleashing the fury of the elements!

I don't know how others manage to get it done, but shouts make it fairly simple for me to pull off Master spells. Fus Ro Dah, Whirlwind Sprint or Slow Time may work, but I rely on Become Ethereal. I just can't wait to rain hell on dragons using potions and Marked for Death I just made a Dunmer who's going to specialize in Destruction and Alchemy. I'll let you folks know how that works out; I just wish I could make a video of it.

SO EXCITE

Ah, I thought you meant that build wouldn't be *using* Sneak - not just that you wouldn't be investing perks in it. Fair enough, though I usually try to limit my skill use so as to avoid levelling too quickly, i.e. before my damage-dealing skills can deal with the enemies that are being spawned.

That sort of build would make me want to visit
Another build idea could forego Illusion, just focusing on the following:

Destruction
Alchemy
Sneak

with Archery or 1-handed as a minor, solely as a poison-delivery mechanism.

I guess Alteration or Enchanting could be thrown in there as well. The idea would be to sneak into a good position, place runes/walls, open up with a poison (weakness to x) arrow, chug a potion, then follow up with destruction spells of choice. Alternatively, open up with those spells first, then use a poisoned dagger if/when enemies get close, and blast away with flames/sparks/frostbite dualcast at close range.

Haven't tried this yet, but given some of the numbers I've seen, seems like it would be viable. You wouldn't be getting stealth kills per se (unless you wanted to grab Silent Spell, which requires investment in Illusion), but would be sneaking to prepare the ground & choose your fights.

This is no different from leveling smithing, so that your weapons or armor improve.

I for one agree with the op, and have used a mix of conjuration and alchemy to suppliment my destruction focused mage for a while now.

That's the thing; if a mage is going to be stealthy, Illusion is practically a must-have. Quiet casting, muffle, invisibility and crowd control. But mostly for Quiet Casting. Without that, a mage can be as stealthy as they want, but will only ever get in an ambush. If ambushing suits you, that's fine, but that can also be done with Illusion.

I've never leveled smithing, and have not missed it. Weapons are fine by themselves. One can't say the same about destruction magic. Ya know, the Destruction Mages "weapon". Having minimal AR, he needs his destruction magic, or, again, his "weapon" to scale, and be useful like physical weapons do and are, but it falls short at higher levels. Too much mana for such little effect.

When a warrior runs out of stamina, he can still swing and do damage.

When a Destruction Mage runs out of mana, he's [censored]! Plain and simply [censored]! Especially seeing they did minimal damage, while depleting all their mana. It just doesn't pay off.

Weapons do not need supplementing, destruction magic shouldn't either. (From a damage point of view!!!!!!!!!! Just say both characters are completely naked, or "all things equal" if you like, other than choice of damage dealing weapon. All we are talking about is magic weapons vs physical weapons!)

Excuse me.

*ahem*

First and foremost, we are not talking about magic versus melee. As the OP, I'm pretty sure you're on the wrong thread.

Secondly, mages have weapons, too. When we run out of magicka, we use staves, which still get all the bonuses to magical effects (including damage) that the user gets, whether via perks or potions or any other bonus. There are also various scrolls, including scrolls for Master spells which can circumvent the otherwise high cost. Very simple.

Thirdly, your post is absolutely rancid. You obviously haven't read the rules, because your language is both offensive and constitutes "yelling."

You're being reported. Please cease posting virulent things on this thread; either contribute or leave us alone.

First and foremost, I'm simply responding to others statements within this thread with a different opinion. Maybe you should tell them to stop bring things up?

Secondly, I am talking Destruction Mage, you know, the kind that use destruction magic?

Thirdly, really? Rancid? Yelling? I was not "yelling", usually denoted by ALL CAPS!!! (<--That could be construed as yelling ) I did indeed swear.........that is why they have an auto-censor. I did not avoid it, a warn-able offense. It did it's job, and I think you need to relax a wee bit, it's just a discussion with differing opinions. No need to get all uptight about it.

And therefore derailing the thread.

Also, excessive exclamation points is also yelling. But let's pretend you've been nice this whole time, yeah?

Contribute or leave. Perhaps you could learn a lesson from other users who criticized my ideas and offered their own instead of cursing about Destruction magic and what you think makes melee better, because, again, that is not what this thread is for.

I thought this thread was for talking about builds involving Destruction & Alchemy?

I (and no doubt the OP) have seen enough of the "Destruction is Weak!"/"No, it's Fine!" argument. It's inevitable that some of that is going to spill over here, but c'mon... please? Can we discuss builds?

If that's not cool, you can always go start your own thread. It will no doubt be extremely successful.

Edit: ninja'd by the OP

I will restate my argument one last time.

Swords don't need smithing to be powerful.
Destruction needs Alchemy to be powerful.

Simples. Last post.

I leave you to it.

Promise?

Anyway, back on-topic.

It probably needn't be said at this point, being extremely obvious, but a bit of Atronach-focused Conjuration would be, I think, ridiculously powerful if thrown in with Alchemy-fuelled Destruction. Take Conjuration instead of Illusion, and pull out a Flame Atronach before you cast Fireball with impunity. No need even for sneaking, and you don't have to worry about a follower!

This seems like a perfect kind of style for a Telvanni-style Dunmer mage.

Why Conjuration? I'm not so sure I really see your reasoning outside of RP value.

i lied

Promise.


As others have said before in the thread, an atronach would provide a good distraction to kill enemies.

I suppose, but...companions don't require perk investment

i lied again

Companions get in the way of spells and die, and atronachs can be resummoned, though.

Exactly. I haven't played with companions since my first mage, who was sort of an all-rounder, killed follower after follower with an ice spike to the back. Poor Lydia! And Stenvar. And Meeko. And that jailor guy from Solitude. And...

Well, you get the idea.

So if you don't have a follower, you have to either be able to soak damage (armor/blocking), get in sneak kills, fall back on Illusion ... or summon your own distraction. Most of the time it's not necessary, but sometimes you just get ganged up on.

I guess your other option is just to chug potions a lot, but I like to act in real-time (hotkeys, not the menus), and it gets distracting.

Oh, and I only use Shouts with a few of my characters, so I can't always rely on Fus Ro Dah either.

I guess that's a more personal thing. I, for one, love going into menus (I think it's a result of my RPG upbringing), so it doesn't bother me one bit, especially since I can easily see what's going before I unpause. And for that matter, I love shouts, and probably love them most on mages.

Off topic: I've heard (idr where) that the Familiar you can summon changes form depending on its kills. Is this true? I've never really used the Familiar, and I wonder because the spell isn't exactly "Summon Spectral Wolf."

Never heard that. Hope it's true, but I doubt it...

My familiar was always a wolf.

Did you use it often, and did it kill lots of other things?

Yeah, the familiar is always a wolf and it's effective at low levels but honestly it's useless above level 6 or so. On the other hand, a flame atronach is very useful up to level 30 and isn't that much more expensive to cast. It's efficient enough for any character to use.

BTW: I've been following your thread and I commend you for standing up to the destruction haters but sadly, it seems to be a losing battle. I just don't understand their logic; it's become sort of a faith based, unexamined position.