What's the difference between equiping light armor, or pressing a button that says you can now be good with light armor? You CHOOSE to equip light armor. And don't pretend like you won't be at a huge disadvantage if you suddenly decide you want to use heavy armor later in the game.

And "starting with no differences" is bull. You pick a race which has different starting bonuses. +20 two handed is a lot different than +20 destruction. Besides, you start at level 1. What kind of huge difference are you expecting from one person to another?

Lol, have you ever opened the SKILLS menu?

I noticed this throughout the game in itself now. In previous games there was at least some disability to some things in the games. Now Skooma for example has 0% side effects for a drug....
No real perma damage hits either, where in Oblivion you had to go to a church to get rid of it. Potions wouldn't help at all.

(I'm on my computer, so I can quote again)

Well your football anology is kind of the point...

-In some people's minds, Skyrim went and scored a touchdown on that 100 yard drive, and we are celebrating the success of their gameplay, because it was effective, it worked, and it was great.

-In other people's minds, they are the defense that Skyrim just scored a 100 yard touchdown on, so they are pissed off and fuming because they just got burned.

But I'm on the side celebrating the touchdown, because I absolutely love what Skyrim did, and the mechanics that shape the gameplay and character development.

I feel that Skyrim is better in virtually every way than Morrowind and Oblivion, the -only- thing missing being some spell effects, and even that isn't nearly enough to have me gripe.

I am fine with the bonuses that abilities that races currently get. Make them any more, and you -could- start messing with game balance, because the game would have to be balanced for the more significant race differences, which could lead to character gimping if you select the wrong race for your build.

And I don't like that.

I'm tired of the EverQuest, or World of Warcraft character development style that says in order to be fully effective at your character, you have to perk your build a certain way, and make sure you're playing the proper class.

Maybe I want to be a Khajiit warrior, or a Breton thief, or an Orc mage, or a Nord assassin, or an Argonian battlemage. I don't want to be at a disadvantage because I'm playing a race / class combination that the game doesn't really want me to play. It's why, as much as people cite D&D, I don't want Elder Scrolls anywhere near that model. I love Elder Scrolls because it's -not- D&D model of X race can only be Y classes, and Y class can only do Z skills, and use A, B, and C weapons and armors. I absolutely despise that model with every fiber of my roleplaying being.

I much prefer the Star Wars Galaxies (pre-CU and NGE), or Morrowind / Oblivion, and now Skyrim (which I believe to be an improvement over Morrowind and Oblivion) styles of complete freedom of designing the character however -you- see fit, with no input from the game telling you what you should or shouldn't be.

Yes, racial differences are nice, and they are there, in game. -GAMEPLAY- wise, no imagination wise, I have had some very different gameplay experiences in -any- of the "big 3" TES games, because the racial differences are significant enough to alter the gameplay experience, but not enough to gimp me if I decide to make my Wood Elf a dual wielding, heavy armored tank, instead of a stealthy archer.

your characters are gimped in a way unless you increase a school of magic and invest points into perks for it, that school of magic will not yield its full potential for you making it in essence useless for you. There also a good number of spells in skyrim you can't cast unless you increase your mana up from its base level gimping you further in terms of magic use.

I would like a "light" class creation.4 Tag skills (+10), one weaknes (-50%), one strength (+25%). That means our chars has some skills in the beginning, but not enough to tie us down to much.

Um... what?

If you want to be a mage, yes, you have to invest in the magic skills you wish to use.

I'm not sure what your point is.

But there has never been a situation where it was a discrepancy so bad that you really didn't stand a chance at making a decent [class] out of [race].... Then again, before Skyrim, attributes were an integral part of TES character creation.

I play a thief that the only magic he uses is resto, and only in emergencies. A mage with a 2hander for up close and no destruction( summons and heals on my companion, which is amusingly effective). Plus a couple more guys.

When I make a new toon, I just play. After awhile, I find the character develops himself without me making boundaries or the game forcing me into one. The mage uses a 2hander because he found a good one and it stuck.

The thief doesn't use magic because he is too busy using a bow, and his stealth is good enough as it is.

I don't force my toons to become what they don't naturally become through the course of playing, and that's what endears me to them.

I ABSOLUTELY, UNEQUIVOCABLY LOVE this game setup.

I'm 42, and played 1st edition D and D, Rolemaster(talk about skills and perks this game was the KING), MERP and then on to computer RPG's.

IMO Some people are just....never....happy.

Well, I was more using the field as a line with the yard marker simply an arrow pointing to where the CC system was. Think of sliders. I feel that Skyrim could have left more of the classic TES CC system in the game(and still brought in the perks system they do have) to create a system that folks like you could get behind(because it would moved away from the horrors of Oblivion yet stayed close to the roots of classic TES CC). To me, that is evolution. Not scrapping the whole thing and coming up with something entirely new using terminology from the old way.

(using another football anology from the 20 yard like after a touchback), it goes like a 10 yard sack followed by a 90 yard TD. For others it goes like a 10 yard sack, fumble, def TD, but then you got a 50 yard kick off return. End result you are at midfield(which is a good way to start a drive and 30 yards further upfield before the sack) but you still gave up a TD.

And I can find people who fit the stereotype on the other side who agree with folks like me and want more options. Give me Oblivion's character advancement/creation minus mob auto leveling, choose 3 attributes to raise(set at +3) from any that linked to a skill you used to level up with(so you don't have to worry about what skills to take or grinding them) with a +2 to ones you did not use, and a perk to select to help define your character even more.(oh, and all skills level you up, not just the primary that make up your class) Who wouldn't be able to get behind that??

Now i know this isn't really a big deal and the game is great but my wife ran into a dragon on the way to my house and Riften and now i can be married i so hope they add remarry in a patch

Me?

Speaking of anologies:

You want to buy a new car with options packages, like A/C, heated seats, etc. Then you take it home and add your custom paint, rims, stereo.

I want a chassis I can drag to my house and build from scratch.

I got what I want.

You're playing the wrong game.

If you do not, or can not, invest in magic perks or magika, then you are effectively gimped in your spell-casting ability. A similar principle works for other attributes and perks in relation to stealth and combat. I think that is what Azrim is saying.

You can't hardly stand in front of an orc warrior if you didn't put any points on health either. What exactly is the argument he is making? Nonsense.

EDIT: Speaking of that, I'd like to see NPCs use their racial perks. Then maybe I wouldn't have to crank the difficulty to master. They are gimped.

So then you put points toward your health. Simple.

I was just rewording it so that maybe he would understand.. Yes, it's simple. You can't expect to be effective with magic if you don't invest in it. Same goes for everything.

Two-handed swords weren't really all that heavy, and how do you know said mage wasn't strong, seeing as there is no strength attribute? Besides, stamina dictates how often you can really put some strength behind your blows. A mage that goes all out in magicka will be exhausted after a couple of swings. But the thought that a cloistered old mage shouldn't be able to swing a two-handed sword with some efficacy is a bit cliched.

So you start with no skill? but can do everything in game? seem skilled to me, i could work with alchemical ingriedients cast metal strech leather, weild a sword/axe/mace/bow/sheild with enough skill to easily kill a carear fighter like a bandit. From the simple like to ride a horse, to the advanved of casting destruction and restoration magic, along with the knowledge to break down and enchant items. I seem it be less of a clean slate than previously disscussed.
This game is an rpg, anyone who thinks other wise dont need an rpg, they need a book or a movie obviously as there are plenty of character development opertunitys avaiable.
To quote another forum member bethesdas games are only as good as the player.

There some great ideas in this thread and lots of missed oppertunity im skyrim but the amount of ppl claiming no rpg mech an no character dev, must really be thin on imagination and creativity. Sad fact; you cant role play if you cant play a role...Tools are one thing but where do they stop, yes trait, attributes ect are all very well but when is enough enough?
I dont see it, i see skyrim as a missed oppotunity but not as a failure to rp, that is the failure of the gamer not the game, at least not this game.
Buff what you want nerf what you dont, include what you want exclude what you dont, set ypur own Bounderies and build Oppotunitys to stretch and mold the game to your character, be it a bold warrior or passive monk, an idea from a franchise or an avatar of your self, these things are not a list of numbers the numbers are mierly the constraint if the games mechanics they offer balence, they are tools to be used or excluded, the choice is the players, how far you can take that very much depends on you.

Something like this would definitely be a bonus too. Anything to enhance the rather mundane character creation and create some individuality for both your race and your "class" (this seems to be a no-no word, but I can't think of a better one).

Well put.

In many ways, the game feels "dumbed down" (Jeebus, I hate that term) to so many because the system is developed to stay out of the player's way, while they experience and craft the story.

It seems like there's an entire generation of role-players who, through no fault of their own, equate "role-playing" with playing the "system" instead of the partaking in or creating the "story." I think some people aren't "seeing the forest through the trees," so to speak. A player's ability to have a rewarding "role playing" experience is limited more by his or her imagination and depth of discipline than it is by the system itself.

And I can understand and appreciate the inevitable retort of "well the story never changes because all of your characters will be able to do x, y, and z, and there are no real consequences. That's one of Skyrim's most significant flaws... but, in many ways, it's also a criticism based squarely from a meta-gaming perspective. Yes... as players of games, we can identify the conventions and cliches that are present in just about any genre, much the same way any avid film buff can spot a meaningful cutaway or revealing bit of dialog.

In the end, though, these arguments are from an "external" perspective--that of the player. And again, it comes down to what you as a player are willing to invest in terms of imagination and suspension of disbelief. Have you purchased this game and played it with the intention of creating the most compelling set of statistics that can overcome the sets of statistics that are placed in its way? Have you started this game in order to experience a story through the eyes of a unique individual with a history and motivations you've carefully conceived and created? I don't think there's a right or wrong answer, but I can honestly say I've derived no shortage of enjoyment from this game by embracing the latter.

I'm in the same boat as you, I'm 35 and have been playing D&D, AD&D, Shadowrun, Vampire, MERP, and the Swedish Drakar&D?moner (which to this day remains my absolute favorite system) since I was 12. From the real RPGs you've played, don't you ever miss having that character sheet in front of you where you can get involved in your character and see his stats and skills develop, note your strengths and weaknesses and have a system (or DM) who actually makes you adhere to those things? I feel like all of that has been taken away in Skyrim, and I'm left with a toon, as you so correctly put it, who is nothing but that; a toon. As much as I apply all my RP experience and passion, there's just still something missing. But you're right, I'm probably one of those people who will never be happy replacing real RPGs with a computer game, so I'll end my griping here.

Before this thread gets locked I just wanted to say thanks for everybody's input, it's been real. Actually made me want to quit computer games and get the old RPG group back together, lol. Thanks!

I can appreciate where you're coming from, and I've referred to Skyrim as "the closest thing on screen I've found as I chase that Pencil-and-Paper role-playing high." I'm bored at work. It's a Friday... and I've been thinking about making a Skyrim "character sheet" concept for those who are interested (complete with "rolling up" attributes with actual dice. I'm afraid the player will still have to pull double-duty as the DM to make sure they "adhere" to the sheet, but I think it could be fun anyway (for a certain type of old-school player). I'll warn you it will probably be close to AD&D 2nd Edition, since that was the last system I played expansively, but... eh... we'll see how it goes.

I don't actually miss all the stats and info about my character. How many thieves didn't have high dex? Warriors without high strength? The term min/maxing was invented because people wanted the best for their character at what they do. How many Warriors had 16 INT because people wanted to roleplay a smart, educated fighter? Add all the stats,perks you want, It doesn't mean characters will be MORE different they will just feel that way to you.

Do you really need to take a perk that makes you better at 2h weapons but limits you from dual wielding to just simply use 2h weapons?

The Expert set was the first RPG I ever played. My own system owes a lot to Drakar & Demoner.

There are a few CRPGs that get it (almost) right. New Vegas was the closest in recent years, if the post apocalypic genre is for you.

Go for it! Really. The advantage of CRPGs is that you can sit down and game, but the experience of (semi)-regular tabletop gaming with friends is well worth the effort (and then some).