Attributes, significant class advantages and disadvantages-- everything you desire is nothing more than player restriction, which is fine, but not in Skyrim.

Again, I haven't done that either.

Altmer get +50 Magicka + Highborn.

Orcs getting + 50 Health, or Stamina, is hardly player restriction.

A Bosmer getting a bonus to Health based on how much Stamina they have, also is hardly a restriction.

Even WITH what he proposes, calling it "player restriction" is quite the hyperbole. Because even WITH what he is proposing you are still free to do as you please. Just like most games, the bonuses offered at level 1 pale every level when you start to gain more and more levels. It's not a whole lot, but it at least offers more customization options that most of us who are unhappy with the way Skyrim evolved from Oblivion are looking for.

Not tagging skills and instead leveling as you go is not restricting options.

And what he is asking for is player restriction when he's essentially wanting to make it so only certain races can do certain things.

I do -not- want to go back to an EverQuest Race / Class system. Nooooo thank you.

I'm not asking for that in the least.

You want detriments to an Orc trying to be a master mage. That sounds like race / class restrictions to me.

Where exactly did I say that?

I have already given examples. I have already posted a link to a thread where I specifically pointed out examples... but here, maybe this will help you grasp the situation:

High Elves get +50 Magicka, correct?

How is it restricting to an Orc if Orcs get +50 Health? Or if they get a Stamina bonus based on how much Health they have?

How does it restrict an Orc from being a Mage if a High Elf gets a +5 Magicka per level whether you pick to level up Magicka or not? How exactly does that limit an Orc? It doesn't, it simply elevates the High Elf to a higher level of Mage, it does not restrict an Orc.

Hmm, you may have read a different thought from him than I did. Quite a difference in + health or - Stamina vs nords can't learn sneak but get +10 to heavy armor.

Finally someone understands.

Bosmer getting +X damage to animals (bears, mammoths, etc) =/= Bosmers can't learn Heavy Armor Perks

Yeah I think I had the wrong idea as well. I assumed you were agreeing with OP as to an attribute system. I see where you're going with your idea, and I somewhat agree.

no, skyrim is about a blank slate. nothing matters. all is cosmetic except for a few points in some skills and some abilities.
it's not freedom, it's the epitome of generic. no distinction. all gameplay is basically the same. no thought needed except your roleplay mindset.

and, until skyrim, the elder scrolls has been about defined character creation with less in each title. total freedom has never been a reality except in your roleplay.

skyrim is unabashedly mundane. all is created equal. nothing stands out.

it's like giving a trophy to all the kids in little league.

That's your unfortunate opinion, and your experience is limited by your imagination and your unwillingness to restrict yourself. If you need a scripted game to tell you what you can and can't do, then the Elder Scrolls certainly isn't your game.

EDIT: And if you think there's no distinction between someone heavily perked in Magic and someone heavily perks in Melee combat, then I don't think we're playing the same game...

It in no way makes it so players can't do what they wish. However what it does do is further diversify the races so that, from early to late game, your chosen race actually has many differences rather than just their once-a-day and one other trait, like +50% Fire Resist, or something of that nature.

You can still make a highly powerful Orc Mage, but they will be powerful for an Orc, if they are compared to a High Elf however the High Elf will be above them simply because of natural traits. Just the same, if by lore/realistically, an Orc will always physically be stronger than a High Elf just because of the racial traits.

It's just an extra nudge in the "best" class that the races are set up for. They can even just be general traits that can help multiple classes.

Three pages later and I finally understand what you mean. Sorry about that, I was zero'd in on OP's idea and assumed you were agreeing with him. Yeah, I don't think this is a bad idea at all. I've said before, I hope Bethesda keeps the current system in place and builds upon it for future content-- this idea still falls in line with building upon their current system.

It does yes, but it also in my opinion adds more depth to what race you pick, currently it feels superficial.

Having pros and cons for a race is a good thing for story and gameplay.

Expanding out to include things like, for example in Skyrim, Dark Elves having to pay extra in Windhelm but getting a bonus somewhere else really adds weight to the world and the character you have created.

I like the idea of traits as they were in Fallout 1 & 2. Selecting traits was entirely optional so it's a system which offers players a chance to define their character at creation without forcing them to do so.

Some of the traits in Fallout could have a significant effect on gameplay but for the most part the advantages and disadvantages cancelled themselves out so it was as much a roleplaying choice as anything. For instance, the Atronach birthsign in Oblivion (50% Spell Absorption, Stunted Magicka) would be a good example of a trait that could be applied to TES.

I still have trouble with having to restrict yourself. That's great in a group setting P&P RPG. You have to act out your character, say things they would say, etc. But in a computer game, there needs to have a bit more rigidity because you have nobody else that you are RPing for/with. It can work in computer games, but you need others players. Computer games like EQ and WoW and Rift allow for RPing because there are other players for you to interact with. But in single player games, you need a bit more of an outlined box to play in or the lines begin to blur. When I was a kid, GIJoe or Star Wars battles were much better when you had multiple children bringing their respective figures to the battle and giving various characters a voice. When you were alone, it just wasn't the same.

I also thought the OP wanted more like NV where you had simply a plus perk and a minus perk at CC. Not the same as attributes(which I feel get a bad rap due to the flawed Oblivion leveling system). Attributes seem to work in every other RPG that uses them known to man. And until Oblivion, worked well in TES.

what you don't realize is that i absolutely DO restrict myself. skyrim forces me to do so because it supplies almost nothing. no distinction is inherent. it's all based on my roleplay.

don't tell me the elderscrolls isn't for me because it is. i don't need nor want handholding. i want to be rid of generic blandness. play who i want to play is great in theory. but, when all playthroughs are the same EXCEPT for my roleplay mindset, then, the freedom mantra argument holds no water. it's all the same. just different approaches.

the imagination, the roleplay, is a NECESSITY for the elderscrolls. not a talking point. i don't need a script.

i need choices to matter. i need differentiation. IN-GAME. not, my imagination. i'm already going to use that anyways.

But aren't those examples exactly what you're getting when:

-Bretons get an absorb magic ability
-Orcs get a Berserker power
-Wood Elves get a Command Animal ability
-High Elves get magicka regen ability

And so on and so forth down the line...

Yes there are currently race differances, But some people want a bigger differance.
But no matter what Beth does someone won't be happy.

Do you really think folks would be upset if Orcs got a bonus to Stamina or Nords got bonus health?? What if you got to choose two perks at character creation, one bonus and one minus from a list based on your race?? Who would complain then??

From some of the complaints I have seen on this forum, I could see people complain if they changed the color on the butterfly wings. This game could be perfict in one persons mind and a lot of crap in anothers. It would also probably lead to even more complaints about being overpowered and having bad balance.

But would it be enough to matter. Obviously complaints about Obilvion's flawed leveling system(and the monsters auto leveling) led to enough complaints that Bethesda decided to revamp character creation. IMO it's a giant leap that could have been avoided had Bethesda went half the way from Oblivion to Skyrim than what it did. I also think the next TES would not have gone all the way because the complaints would have been greatly reduced(that does not mean stopped).

Imagine a football field. One end zone line is Oblivion's character system. The other end zone line(100 yards away) is Skyrim's. Had they simply put it at about the 50, you would have much less complaining. I think they took it too far(I would have rather had Oblivion's system without the stupid mob auto leveling, but would have been OK with something around the 50 yard line.

Exactly, and now imagine if they take a look at the differances between the races and go too far. Then we could end up with a game where the only way to be a decent mage is to be a High Elf and the only way to be a decent warrior is to be a Orc. They have a hard time with the middle ground. Of course they could also end up going the other direction and completly getting rid of the racials. I would not like to see that.