TheMech - Yes its just as frustrating for me to type out as it is for you to read, I imagine, hey.

As far as pre tagging skills - it really has zero impact what so ever on me.

My roleplay of my character's past life makes no difference if I can boost a couple skills or not. Either way, im level 1, and unskilled.

Instead of saying my character spent years training, and thus is more proficient, I rolepmay that my character spent years studying, and now finally gets to apply those skills, and his past experiences are what lead him to using the skills he does.

As far as the class system argument - I'd argue that Skyrim has a more restrictive class system than past games. Past games you level a skill to 100 and that's it. No further customization. Everyone who's maxed a skill is the same as everyone else, and there is nothing stopping you from mastering it all.

Skyrim takes away titles but you have to select perks now, which represent your specialization, and you can only perk a few dozen times, not nearly enough for even close to anything, and each skill has different paths of specialization leading to more choice for your character. I don't have a problem with -the- class system, but I do have a problem with a class system that says if I do one thing, I can'tt do another. I.E. Cast a spell as a warrior, or pick a lock as a mage.

Exactly this.

For instance, Orcs have zero inherent weaknesses (almost all have no weaknesses).

If you want to make a powerful Orc mage, all it takes is time. The only thing that separates an end game Orc Mage and an end game High Elf is that the High Elf has the +50 Magicka. That's it.

I see two differant mindsets here. The first type want to use their imagination to set rules for gameplay to allow for more variaty. The second type want the game developers to choose things to cive options for gameplay. The problem with the first one is that so many peoples imaginations have been shrunk because of all the entertainment out there. The problem with the second is that the developers will never be able to program all options into the game. So to allow more posibilities they have given some rules with skills and basic stats M/H/S and allow you to use your mind to create the rest. It's not a perfict system but they would have to build a very complex charcter creation system to allow you to set everything you want and it still wouldn't have all the options that people would want.

I wonder how much of the hatred in the elder scrolls class system stems from the much more flawed leveling system of Oblivion and the "must have +5s" mentality" (even though after level 15 or so you couldn't raise that stat any more). Simple solution: Keep skyrim as is regarding perks, but make you choose 4 major and 4 minor skills: Majors level up 10% faster, minors 5% faster. Name your own class or choose from the standard elder scrolls assortment. Take it further, bring back attributes with similar bases as previous games. Leveling up only gives you +3 to choose from any three that involve a skill you used during the level.(sneaking gives a dex option, 1H a str option, etc, oh and keep a luck just for the thieving types who might like to raise that one)

There was nothing stopping someone from Maki g an Orc mage in past games that was just as powerful as the most powerful High Elf or Breton either, or a Breton warrior just as powerful as the most vicious Orc.

No I like a system where your abilities are based on what you have the opportunity to learn in the game world
So you choose to study to become a warrior, you become a warrior
At the same time you are missing the option of becoming a mage
The nearest any TES game came to this was Morrowind with its faction based training
Still it let you learn far to much. A PnP game like Runequest set far more limits on you through real world limits (eg money, time, access to training) without having classes

I also see the P&P mindset in here as well. In P&P you have a character sheet. Anything outside of that is pretty much in your head. So folks used to that have the ability to compartmentalize alot of information in their head. I'm a P&Per myself and simply choose not to use skills that go against the "class" of my Skyrim character. But self imposed limitiations in a video game during heat of the moment combat is very tricky. It's easy to say never use an exploit along the lines of alchemy/smithing/enchanting and temp fortify effects. But try not resorting to using a sneaking for a mage character that just can't seem to get ahead in a fight with a boss. Or Nord warrior not healing himself when he is in a tough situation.

If the player doesn't use any self imposed restrictions and simply wants to min-max the game he will end up some kind of hybrid battle-mage or a sniping sneaking archer. And the two character builds will look pretty much the same with anyone else who shares it. Finally, if the class system doesn't change anything then why the opposition to it?? If you choose your class and can still become a super-master of all trades(that matter) then why take it away??

I also wonder what would have happened if the character sheet at the beginning gave the option to name your character's profession or "class" even if it was just a line on the character sheet.(oh wait, there isn't a character sheet) Just some points to ponder.

True.

And that is one big thing that makes race decision superficial. If an Orc can be just as good as a High Elf with magic, what's the actual difference between choosing Orc or High Elf?

Don't want to use magic? Don't use magic.
Don't want to be able to learn destruction magic? Don't use destruction magic.
Don't want to use a certain type of armour? Don't use a certain type of armour.

Honestly, you can personalise your character without 'perks.' Just do the things you think they'd do and don't do the things they wouldn't. It really is that simple.


The 'can be.'

Not true, the orc may have perked out destruction and conjuration while the high elf perked out illusion and alteration. There could be a large differance between them or none at all. Thats all about choice.

Cosmetic. It has always been this way. I understand your mindset, really I do, it is a very basic and traditional RPG element - however - it pigeonholes players. If you want to make a mage for example, you pretty much have to make a High Elf using this model. Some games go to the extent of saying "these are the ONLY classes that can even be mages". Really and truly, it does not adversely affect you if all Races are the same in this respect. I don't understand why however they would have racials in the game at all since it makes it quite clear which race is the best *cough cough Breton or Orc*. Typically, Races even have an impact on how you are received in towns and dialog options - not the case in Skyrim. Yes, I kind of miss that - but at the same time I do like "looking" how I want to look and me being the "best" I can be.

Very true but I think it comes down to self control or lack there of. I know I have a hard time not exploiting smithing, but thats my problem not the games. We live in a world where, more and more, people expect things to be handed to them so they don't have to use their own minds.

Yes, thank you for comparing apples to toast.

"Someone specing Illusion is different than someone specing Restoration."

Really?

I'd like to compare apples to apples now.

A Orc Destruction Mage compared to a High Elf one.

Ok apple to apple.

If there was a major differance and being a high elf was vastly supirior to an orc. Then people would complain that if they wanted to be the best mage they would have to be a high elf. That would remove choice. It just seems some peoples idea of choice is a little differant.

Experience points absolutely increase your attributes without magic or divinity. But once you pick a path, or class, in XP style of play, you're basically stuck.

The Skyrim perk system is a fun way to pick a "class", yet still be able to diversify a character and keep it interesting. More fun, for example, than XP skill trees that lock a player into only Archer, or only Two-Handed.

Which is why the contention that I'm going to pick weightless heavy armor over light every time is just comical. The perks are balanced and rewarding enough that it allows me to choose based on my style.

So again, all you're choosing is a red apple or a red apple. If an Orc can be as good as a High Elf, why ever pick one or the other? Why not just pick the Dark Elf?

Because you have the choice. People can play as they want. If I want to play a Orc mage then I can. If I want to play a High Elf 2 handed heavy armour then I can do that too. That is what Skyrim is all about.

No one is saying they can't do those things. But why should an Orc be as good as a High Elf?

Why shouldn't they? Both of you guys are right, and both are wrong. There is no "correct" way. Based on traditional RPG values and rules Eric, you would be correct. Based on TES, Talon is correct. The fortunate thing for you is that it does not adversely affect you outside of being irritating. I don't know about you, but I think there are far more pressing issues in Skyrim that need to be resolved.

Why shouldn't he?

Why are you so hung up on weight? Look at the perks themselves, the bonuses are very different. You can get extra stamina regeneration through Light Armor, as well as a 10% chance to ignore all damage from each attack. I believe that all else equal, the axe will do more damage than the dagger (provided they're of the same set).

And leveling heavy armor by letting mud crabs hit you? Really? If you exploit, don't even bother complaining.

Starting attribute bonuses differ, as well as racial abilities. A high elf's racials are better than an orc's for being a mage. I chose Imperial because the starting stat boosts matched what I was going for with the Cleric class. If you make it so that being a High Elf is WAY better than an Orc for being a mage, then who the hell would ever play an Orc mage? Why even give the option?

I agree that I think it is important to be able to make any race into whatever type of character the player wants them to become. But I also think that racial bonuses/disadvantages (though there aren't really a lot in Skyrim...) should exist. So Altmer have the most magicka: cool, they make excellent mages right off the bat. That doesn't mean you can't make an Orc mage too, just just aren't going to start with as much magicka, but that makes sense lore wise.* If it is balanced well it just makes some play styles harder (or some might say more rewarding).

*Now this brings me back to a "trait/innate perk" system that was talked about earlier in the thread (by the OP). If you have a system where you can customize the background of your character with benefits/detrations (both or one or the other or none) would allow you to create an Orc mage who starts off with a similar amount of magicka as an Altmer, but maybe with less health/stamina than normal orcs (but this might be closer to the standard health/stamina of other races). In this way there is both customization, but also ability to create the character you want.

I would have to agree with this.

Because it makes your racial choice nothing but cosmetic, which basically means what race you pick is about as worthwhile as whether you equip the Golden Lancer or the regular Lancer is Gears of War.

As an RPG, the game is supposed to revolve around choices and consequences.

TES has been doing less and less of this.

We see this in Skyrim nearly everywhere, where the choices you make have little to no consequence.

Join the Dark Brotherhood? Nothing of any importance happens once you finish the quest line.

Go against them? Again, nothing really changes.

The races being superficial is something that shouldn't have happened, along with everything else.