I guess there isn't any sixism in TES.

In real life, about 51% of the human population are female.
Now, we live in a world with many differences and discrimination based on religion, gender and ethnicality.
On the otehr hand, we have Nirn. A world riddled with monsters and heroes. Yes, there are racism. Nords dislike Elves, and Altmer dislike everyone else.
But the genders are equal.

Had this world, Terra, had it such there would be a quite different history here. And as there are more females than males, there would be statistically more female soldiers.
I fail to see your point, OP.

The female soldiers in my game are naked. So it's not a problem.

idk i see plenty of racism, from all khajiits hanging out outside of cities to a lot of nords talking [censored] about elves and mages of all kinds

what of the female jarls and blacksmiths, are they out of place too? or how about female housecarls? i have no problem with females filling all roles and there's nothin sixier about a woman who can handle a cooking spoon and a sword

you need to check your closet because your sixist insecurities are a sign of skeletons..

Firstly, there's nothing to say you can't have a conservative society without sixism. Maybe that's how it is in RL but doesn't necessarily mean that a different society as envisaged in something like this game also has to be sixist.

Secondly, this game is not a recreation of any particular time period of our own history. It takes cues from certain historical cultures but is not about that setting or time.

This isn't being PC, the Nords are just pragmatics and warriors at heart. There has never been any logic in keeping half of your society defenseless and meek. The Nords value strong, independent people in general, regardless of gender. If a Jarl was dying and he had a son and daughter to succeed him, with the daughter being forceful and crafty with both blade and word, and her younger brother being stupid and reckless, the daughter would be chosen hands down. Why? Because she fits the job. She has the skills and talents. It's as simple as that.

Believe it or not folks, there are such things as non-sixist societies.

Well i noticed there seem to be a lot of women in combat role's more than the usual fantasy game but, it's a fantasy game so that doesn't bother me. What did was there is no difference between men and women in the game when it comes to armor and weapons.Grew up on a farm/ranch, ex millitary, and have 4 daughters...not to mention the women out number the men in my big family 9 to 1. I teach my girls that they can do anything a man does...Just not the way he does it. lol we are built different so it breaks the setting for me seeing a woman use a 2 handed sword that is sized for a man over 6ft. It's not the woman swinging that bothers me it's the MASS of the two objects in motion(woman and 2handed weapon)
Now there are exections to the man vs woman roles and what the can or cannot do. I teach my girls that weither it's doing farm work or hand to hand,archery, and target shooting....to bad none of them are into hot rods.(their ages are 3,12,18, and 21)

There are clearly defined gender roles in both Stronghold Orc society and Ashlander society, as well as Golden Saint and Dark Seducer society. However, it seems mainstream mannish and elven societies do not distinguish between genders.

Hey thought i would add, armies for the most part is a young man's game...if you throw women in there then a society looses it's "birthing females" and the ability to grow. lol served with women in the millitary and on a instinct level we want to protect them, it becomes a distraction.

Celts were around for a long time. This wasn't an unprecedented way of life for thousands of years. Obviously, the Nords take after the Celts a little bit. It's a fantasy world, after all, not a Viking simulation.

I second this.

As ridiculous as having a woman slaying bandits, not to mention dragons? I see what you're getting at, but in Tamriel women are equal to men - the lore actually says so - therefore it's not weird at all to have women in the army. I can imagine Nord women wanting to free their country from the Empire as easily as men doing so.

I actually laughed out loud. Yes, we'd most certainly die out

As I've learned recently, TES games are not illustrating any period of real world history. They're set in Tamriel, a place which has its own traditions. Rules of medieval European societies need not apply - Tamriel's women have always been strong and capable and made great leaders, warriors, sorceresses and all-round powerful characters. Just as Whiterun's citizens don't care about Dovahkiin's gender, they don't care if their blacksmith is a man or a woman as long as they can smith good weapons.
Maybe it's just that I'm accustomed to men and women having the same privileges as well as duties, but I didn't even notice the sixism issue in Skyrim, or rather lack thereof. It seemed natural to me; I remembered St. Allessia, Kyne, Potema or Almalexia, or even Gedna Revel who's not really famous lore-wise, but mightily kicks your ass in Morrowind

I don't have a problem with games dealing with sixism, racism and whatnot, I'm not a fan of political correctess either, but I don't think Skyrim has anything wrong in this regard; it's not Bethesda trying to please a "non-existant fanbase" (however untrue this phrase is), it's Bethesda being consistent with the lore of the world they created. Sometimes it's difficult to understand to someone who measures fantasy games as if they they were depicting reality; they're not.

It's not Scandinavia, it's Tamriel. Glass is a volcanic rock, silver is stronger than steel, women are equal to men in every aspect. Deal with it.

I, for one, happen to love the fact that Skyrim depicts a world that is well beyond ours in terms of gender equality. The game shows us a something to aspire towards over the decades to come. More to the point, it gives female gamers and characters the option to game on equal footing with male gamers and charactes. I have no objection to certain portions of a game to change depending on gender, but none of the quest lines should descriminate.

Is it unrealistic? Maybe. But remember that in the real world we have precious little knowledge of how sixism came about. Some would argue that it was a matter of males being larger and physically stronger than females. In a world where magic is easy to learn and everyone can use it, physical brawn would have a lot less impact, as the physically weak could use magic to defend themselves.

I think this is the first time that I hear or read anyone finding it strange that there are many female warriors and smiths in Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowind. On a side note, the best smith in Skyrim and most of the combat trainers are actually male.

I think the Tamriel is actually more inspired by the Roman Empire than medieval Europe. Even though the Roman Empire was not big on the gender equality thing, either.

Primitive societies are not by definition sixist nor are they segregationist. An example is the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C7%83Kung_people of the Kalahari desert, showcased in http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080801/.

Indeed. I got myself one of those

This is a knee-jerk reaction and is very, very obviously the response of 99% a girl.

That`s not what he`s saying.

But we`re looking for believability. Reduce the number of NPC females doing obviously traditional men`s work and have the warrior females, including the Player Female, the unusual few that has dared to be different.

Just sheer logic alone makes it unbelievable to have dozens of women all melee warriors in armour like men because a, You have tough, burly men with huge, muscled, veiny arms who obviously look like they can fight facing women with arms half the size, but can apparently lift huge claymores and maces just as well as the men. And smithing...

b, Smithing is hot, hard, endurance-strength work and is traditionally one reason why men do the job.

But this doesn`t mean women would all stay at home. MAGIC has enabled women to take on men equally, so you could have an equal amount of women magic-users or perhaps even more if it`s discovered that women are more adept at magic than men (as some lore stories do).

You end with a world that creates its own equilibrium- Women being powerful magic users and men being powerful warriors.

p.s. And of course we have the other professions such as shop keeping, etc which women have done in the male dominated area in reality in medieval times.

I think the OP was talking about this interview, but as far as I can tell it only mentions anti-mer racism in Skyrim, and doesn't mention sixism at all. Please let me know if you happen to watch it and find a reference to sixism. I think there is no lore basis for Skyrim being sixist, so the thread is kind of pointless IMO.

http://www.gameswelt.tv/19748/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/video-interview-mit-todd-howard.html?mode=1

^This. I started reading the first page then I thought why are we trying to tie TES lore to our own history? There is no point since it isnt based on our history, the only thing it takes from us is some of the nord culture but not all of its traditions and social values, that is why they have their own lore because it is it's own world not ours.

Jumping in here late, I suppose, but there's a difference people are overlooking, I think.

It's one thing entirely to have plenty of women heroes. There have been women heroes through history and myth, legend and folklore. I have no problem at all with the Companions having women among them, or running into the occasional female bandit or even bandit lord, or for women to be on the throne - it has happened in history. As for adventurers, they are supposed to be, by definition, people who stand apart from society and don't conform to things that might hold true for society in general.

It becomes a bit illogical, however, to have no gender roles at all in a society, particularly in a pre-modern society that relies upon animal power and manpower to get things done, with the occasional supplement of wind and water power. Take soldiering, for example. Women even today are nowhere near equally represented in the military, and it has nothing to do with sixism. Many jobs in the military rely upon the soldier having a certain amount of strength. Female pilots (combat and otherwise) may one day be as common as male pilots. Female military doctors and nurses might well equal males in number. Female clerks and mechanics and electricians in the military might equal males in number. But females will not equal males in the infantry, or among tankers, or certain jobs aboard naval vessels that require physical strength, and so forth. For all the counter-examples of butt-kicking women you can show me, the fact remains that women as a six are not as physically strong as a six. If I put a woman against a man in a fight to the death, you might well bet on the woman, if you know something specific about the two combatants. But if I were to set up a thousand man-versus-woman matches, with combatants chosen at random, and you had to put your money on either the men or the women, no information about the individuals given, you'd be a fool to put your money on the women.

It's even more clear in Tamriel, where guns and diesel-powered vehicles don't exist. No society on Earth has had armies of women, or armies that were equally male and female. It's just an absurdity to pretend that this is viable even in a fantasy setting like Tamriel, because of the simple fact that men are stronger than women, and this becomes even more critical when you have to use muscle power to swing a weapon . I'd be scared out of my wits if the soldiers to my left and right were 105 pound women struggling to swing their axes, and I'd be quite happy if the soldiers to my left and right were 190 pound men who could swing the things quite well.

So yes, while it's completely defensible that there are women among the Companions, as well as other female heroes, even warrior-heroes, it's a complete absurdity that professions like soldiering and blacksmithing and logging, all of which require physical strength, are shown as being half female. It's either political correctness taken to an absurd degree, or else it's just something they didn't think through and made a snap decision.

The Israeli army comes to mind...the red army, though not equal representation, included lots of women (because it gets kind of hard to keep the army supplied with young men when 20 million people die)...

Anyway, not all women are slim 105 pound, and not all men are bulky 190 pound, they are just depicted as such in the game environment because fantasy environments are visually....well...kind of sixist....

It's like complaining your sword damage isn't affected by the body type slider...

Men may have a competitive advantage in strength due to hormones, but women in less developed countries do loads of physical labor, often while the men sit around playing cards from what I can tell. The reason why men dominate professions like the military is because of politicized gender roles more than due to capacity to do the work. If women were freed by society to do these high-prestige jobs then they would bulk up like female bodybuilders and it wouldn't be a problem. Here is some info on female soldiers in the Middle Ages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Women_in_Medieval_warfare

But all the game designers have to do is to say "women in our world are as physically strong as men" and the question is settled ex cathedra. This has been a common feature of role playing games going back to D&D.

Wierd topic...

I agree with Gram's post.

That women were absent or less represented in certain professions or roles throughout history was not always just a question of cultural beliefs or prejudice. Soldierig being a good example. Men are generally better at physical violence. We're also generally more prone to it, unfortunately. So, our more violent side is certainly not always a quality. In our modern society it's actually a handicap. You can tell from the jail population.

I also have a daughter too. I encourage her to be strong and when being bullied at school (by girls) to fight- Which she did. And won.

However, on the other hand I don`t teach her to get into fist fights with the boys as that would be just stupid. I did however encouarge her to try karate, which I do, but she wasn`t into that.

Point is women and men are different, we should accept that, it don`t mean they are inferior and I agree they can achieve the same results but by different means.

None of what you attributed to biology is actually biological. Those are all cultural.


This can't be substantiated.


Nor can this.

I think any situation where you can point to evidence of this would be in societies with extreme sixism woven into the fabric of their respective cultures, and not in the biology of males/females.

Thinking lake your are what dilute experience in RPG games. Developers comes to be so fearfull of the politically correct Police that all games end up tasting the same.
I say if skyrim is a sixist racist place let this be more evident than ocasional harsh words and inane speech. My Dunmer is racist and love to beat those lizard things that so called themselves Argonian. And vice versa with my Kajhiit that hape Dunmers for their endlaving of beastfolks.

Can't argue with that. You speak with logic and truth my friend.