But it′s in Washington...where over 50% are african americans...

I stand corrected.

I'm not much of a gamer, yes, but where in modern gaming you see actual portrayals of racism and sixism? And not just badly educated loonies - those two things used to be foundations of our societies.

Again, where's the lore showing that Morrowind is more "liberal" when it comes to gender equality than Skyrim?


I'm not being sarcastic. I really don't know if there's lore to support it one way or the other.

Aren't female Nords established as the badass don't stay in the kitchen type? This would make them pretty likely to be found in the Legion and Stormcloaks.

Woman in general are like that... Granted in slightly lower numbers then men, but there are dozens of woman out there who kick ass in the history of TES... Just look at the founder of the very first human Empire...

Skyrim is the most conservative/reactionary country in the game, any country is more liberal relative to it, and before any mentions slavery in Morrowind - I'm aware, I'm only talking about sixism here.

I don't think any of us opposes this. I for one like I said have no problem with female troopers and would still play the game even if females held all military positions in the world. It's just a curious fact that a reactionary, tradition-based society permits gender equality, same-six marriage and has no real system of social hierarchy.

That's why I say Police Officer.

Anyway, while "Viking (víkingr)" women were rare; women in the viking culture were not pampered, protected, delicate flowers of womanhood. They may not have picked up sword and shiled and went to war, but they didn't sit home either. They were, more or less, very equal in society.

Is there lore that actually says Skyrim is sixist though? I think it would be a mistake to divide the provinces into liberal or reactionary and assume what their beliefs are that way. A place could have more gender equality and still dislike elves or something.

Based on what? I've never ever seen anything that showed that... What are you basing this information on?

Personally, I'd like to see more "speciesism" in the game, though - it would make it more interesting - for example, I don't know, if Bretons loathe Imperials, or Altmers look down on Dweemers, Khajiits can't stand Argonians and everyone hates Orcs. At least when you started the game again playing a different race/species, you'd get a whole different experience as far as social relations go.

I'm pretty sure Todd Horward said something along the lines of, "Skyrim is a very conservative society, it's a bastion of racism and sixism, we wanted to recreate the feeling of a alien culture of Morrowind, albeit, in a more relatable setting."

Closed for review.

Edit: OK, a couple of posts have gone away. Flaming and personal attacks will not be tolerated on these forums. If you have nothing civil to add then it is best to stay away from posting.

It would be an interesting area to explore, however the developers said they didn't want areas of the game closed off because you chose the "wrong race", any sort of social undertones would be purely superficial, it would still be
interesting though.

It would add longevity to this game. It would encourage people to try all races and both genders.

And rightly so.

Although, in lore terms, The thalmor are having a bloody good go at the latter. Who'd have thought of it - 'Elf Supremacists'?

Why not?


In a totally tolerant society game developer should be able to make games about anything they want, accurate to lore previously established, political correct charged censorship only serves to fuel resentment and distance between social groups. It's truly depressing that game developers and culture/media in general has to conform to this.

edit
Obviously there would be some limitations to what can be done, but really, the games a 15. Am I right in thinking that the artist should not live in fear of the censor - this is the "free world" after all.

It's all a result of our Oprah-fied society. Everything has to be watered down and nice and fuzzy and inoffensive even in a mature-rated game. Because surely, human nature is to hold hands, exchange flowers and sing kumbayah and not, in fact, eviscerate anything that is even mildly different from ourselves. Right? I mean, RIGHT??!!

Even racism towards fictional races isn't tolerated anymore, at least in American games - euros don't have a problem with it. I still remember how my elf character was called a "pr@ck-ear" in Arcanum games at every turn. And then there's the Witcher. Heh.

EDIT: up yours, autocensor. It's not that kind of a "pr@ck". It's the kind of a "pr@ck" that a needle does when it 'pr@cks' your finger. Pointy ears, get it?

Of all the truly depressing things in the world, this is certainly not one of them.

Unless of course there is no basis to assume sixism has ever, or should ever have existed in Skyrim... Which was claimed by several people here but no source for the claims have been provided... No TES game has ever made a difference between sixes and even though Morrowind had slavery it had no real racism. The Dunmer there just hated anyone that wasn't a Dunmer including Dark elves...

The only racist party we have seen in games, so far, have been the Thalmor, Forsworn and the Camonna Tong... None of these groups could be joined, or played mayor impact and none of these groups ever made a difference between man and woman.

Yes, I think the political correctness and fear of upsetting women is well over the top.
The fact that no one says anything about women warriors or women smithers is so obviously noticable it becomes unrealistic. You can tatse the palpable fear of the Devs to even hint at any kind of six barrier in game.

I would have preferred if women warriors were like a rarity and being a fighting woman was a noticable thing. Would be more interesting too.
I think the whole quasi medieval thing loses a certain magic when one part of the reality of an ancient old-fashioned people`s is just so totally ignored due to present day PC.

Heck it`s easier for them to put in racist issues than sixist nowadays.

P.s. The Witcher 1 and 2 was not afraid to do this. In The Witcher 2 Geralt even comments on a woman warrior which to me added to the realism.

You are perfectly within your right to SHOW such unsavoury and antisocial traits in any medium. But never in a fashion which glorifies hatred of any form. A balance must always be shown. Actively spreading hatred and malice towards any group in society is always unacceptable. But highlighting an issue by showing it AS an inssue (and not as positive lifestyle choice) is acceptable, within the boundaries of taste.

Again, sixism never existed in TES... http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-trials-st-alessia The entire first Empire of man was founded by a woman. I see how this feels weird, but sixism was never an issue on this planet so it isn't strange for them. It's not like they suddenly stopped being sixists. Its just that they never were...

What the problem here is, is that people look at our own history and think that at least some things should match the history in TES, but it shouldn't. It doesn't have too. Introducing sixism to Skyrim would just make the game much worse, because it would be a new thing with no evidence of it ever existing before

A reasonable point I suppose. I guess if you think of it as a totally different world that grew its cultures up differently then that could be the case.

Still pushes believability to me. But heck, in a world of talking cats and lizards I guess it`s not so far-fetched.

p.s. Also it`s hard to believe that a world with separate sixes NEVER developed any kind of sixism?

Where in gaming in general have you ever seen portrayals of genuine racism and sixism, and it in't just used as a shorthand for "this guy is dumb and or bad"? And for that matter, where in gaming have you seen a realistic portrayal of a romantic relationship? How about parenthood? Heck, you'd have trouble finding good examples of a lot of those even in other mediums. Even in movies that take place during times in US history where we still had slaves you'd be challenged to find a hero who didn't treat slaves like equals.


I don't think it has anything to do with "political correctness" persey. Writers/developers/whatever what their audience to have a particular emotional attachment with particular groups. Look at the Stormcloaks vs Imperials choice; that whole issue hinges on both sides being equally good or bad. There isn't supposed to be one side that someone could point to and say "they're completely in the right." But if, say, the Stormcloaks were all super sixist and racist while the Imperials were all about equality, people would pretty quickly decide that the Stormcloaks are bad and the Imperials are good, even if it was subconciously. It wouldn't matter if the racism/sixism displayed by the Stormcloaks was "realistic," people today feel (rightly so) that those things are wrong. If you want to get readers/viewers to have a particular emotional reaction then you MUST acknowledge how they will react to certain ideas/reactions.

So I'd say it's probably less "we need to have gender equality or we'll get in trouble" and more "everyone would think these people are bad guys if they were super racist and sixist." Notice how the Thralmor are the most outright racist group in the game and they also happen to be a group we're meant to dislike.