Political correctness : V - Skyrim

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:33 pm

Skyrim is the most conservative/reactionary country in the game, any country is more liberal relative to it, and before any mentions slavery in Morrowind - I'm aware, I'm only talking about sixism here.

Yes, I know. You said that last time I asked you to show me where in the lore that's stated.

Where is that stated?

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:07 pm

A primitive society is naturally sixist AND segregationist. Covering your eyes and ears and singing LALALA doesn't change that.

This is why Witcher's world is more believable than TES can ever be. Any fantasy society is more primitive than the world we live in. Layers of civilization are stripped away along with layers of technology. When you impose modern values upon this setting (such as gender equality and racial tolerance), you take away its believability.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:28 pm

You are perfectly within your right to SHOW such unsavoury and antisocial traits in any medium. But never in a fashion which glorifies hatred of any form. A balance must always be shown. Actively spreading hatred and malice towards any group in society is always unacceptable. But highlighting an issue by showing it AS an inssue (and not as positive lifestyle choice) is acceptable, within the boundaries of taste.

Agreed, there is a fairly large gulf between realistic portrayal and hate speech.
But then Americans have free speech wrote into the constitution, the KKK can hold legal rallies in public places, it's odd then that you find that American games tend to be slightly more liberal than European games, where speech condoning racism and sixism is illegal.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:46 am

There are a lot more female gamers than you think my friend. And Betheseda is after the ~~wallet~~ purse in their ~~pocket~~ pocketbook

Fixed that for you. :smile:

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:21 am

it's odd then that you find that American games tend to be slightly more liberal than European games, where speech condoning racism and sixism is illegal.

I do think there`s a danger to flatly making something illegal. I for one think that sixism is not necessarilly a bad thing. A totally non- sixist society would die out surely? As it would not recognise the difference between men and women which would screw with nature and procreation.

Men and women are different for a reason. it wasn`t just made up by one section of society, even if one section of society did the main ruling.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:47 am

I guess no one notices the female Jarls in this game. It is obvious that the people of Skyrim do not have an issue with Gender, so why should the army be any different.

The OPs assertion that a Conservative or Reactionary society would not allow women to be in the army or in charge is only true if they never allowed it. Conservative/Reactionary people do not want a change from the Status Quo. The status quo in Skyrim is that women are just as capable as men. It would be against their nature to change it so that women have less of a role in military or government.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:49 pm

Where in gaming in general have you ever seen portrayals of genuine racism and sixism, and it in't just used as a shorthand for "this guy is dumb and or bad"? And for that matter, where in gaming have you seen a realistic portrayal of a romantic relationship? How about parenthood? Heck, you'd have trouble finding good examples of a lot of those even in other mediums. Even in movies that take place during times in US history where we still had slaves you'd be challenged to find a hero who didn't treat slaves like equals.

I don't think it has anything to do with "political correctness" persey. Writers/developers/whatever what their audience to have a particular emotional attachment with particular groups. Look at the Stormcloaks vs Imperials choice; that whole issue hinges on both sides being equally good or bad. There isn't supposed to be one side that someone could point to and say "they're completely in the right." But if, say, the Stormcloaks were all super sixist and racist while the Imperials were all about equality, people would pretty quickly decide that the Stormcloaks are bad and the Imperials are good, even if it was subconciously. It wouldn't matter if the racism/sixism displayed by the Stormcloaks was "realistic," people today feel (rightly so) that those things are wrong. If you want to get readers/viewers to have a particular emotional reaction then you MUST acknowledge how they will react to certain ideas/reactions.

So I'd say it's probably less "we need to have gender equality or we'll get in trouble" and more "everyone would think these people are bad guys if they were super racist and sixist." Notice how the Thralmor are the most outright racist group in the game and they also happen to be a group we're meant to dislike.

That still doesn't explain why Nord culture in general is very liberal, there are Nord antagonists as well and protagonists, although that still could justify the Stormcloaks to some degree I guess, I still disagree with it though.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:27 am

That still doesn't explain why Nord culture in general is very liberal, there are Nord antagonists as well and protagonists, although that still could justify the Stormcloaks to some degree I guess, I still disagree with it though.

Why does Nord culture need to be "explained" for why it is the way it is? You've repeatedly claimed that the lore is being ignored, but you refuse to provide this lore or even explain where it could be found.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:38 pm

I do think there`s a danger to flatly making something illegal. I for one think that sixism is not necessarilly a bad thing. A totally non- sixist society would die out surely? As it would not recognise the difference between men and women which would screw with nature and procreation.

Men and women are different for a reason. it wasn`t just made up by one section of society, even if one section of society did the main ruling.

Agreed, while equal rights are a necessary and important part of democracy, gender roles should still be encouraged along with moderate social conservatism, but were starting to go a bit off topic here . :tongue:

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:49 pm

Why does Nord culture need to be "explained" for why it is the way it is? You've repeatedly claimed that the lore is being ignored, but you refuse to provide this lore or even explain where it could be found.

I gave evidence earlier on...

It was said in a Todd Howard interview.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:18 pm

honestly, I dont really see the problem, I like the fact that I get to be an equal.
and as far as I know, in viking society, a woman was always the second in command, when her husband left to go do whatever, she was the leader of the village.
when their son was old enough to lead, he was also old enough to go with his father to sail the seas, so he kinda got the short end there, but I digress.

I dont see why you would want more racism and sixism, or why it would be more natural to have that in skyrim, there are a lot of primitive societies where women were regarded as more worth than men, and as I recall, there was a guerilla group lead by two 10 yo twins, one boy and one girl, think it might have been srilanka or something like that.

theres also african villages where women are regarded as more worth, since they carry water while the men hunt.

and even the catholic church has a lot of female saints, and they are one of the most sixist organizations of all time.

I dont really see how racism and sixism would make the game more realistic, there are people in skyrim with bigoted opinions, and you can hang around them all day if you want to, but dont assume that your opinion is the same as everyone elses, there are more than enough strong women in history to justify them being equals in skyrim.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:04 am

I wouldn't mind a bit more racist/sixist/bigoted undertones, but none of them should be applied across all parts of the game.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:54 pm

The only racists in this game are drunken fools who think they are tough. Racism is not limited to such idiots, compare for example social darwinist "scientific racism" which flourished in late 19th century Europe, promoted by low and upper classes alike.

Been in Windhelm lately? Pretty racist place, how many places are some races restricted to part of the city?
But yes I agree that Ulfric Stormcloak is an drunken fool.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:35 pm

I gave evidence earlier on...

It was said in a Todd Howard interview.

Must have gotten deleted in the lock.

Do you have a link? Do you at least remember the site? Since when are pre release interviews "lore"? Does Skyrim's portrayal of Nords contradict any lore actually given in one of the past games?

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:47 pm

Must have gotten deleted in the lock.

Do you have a link? Do you at least remember the site? Since when are pre release interviews "lore"? Does Skyrim's portrayal of Nords contradict any lore actually given in one of the past games?

It was from youtube.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:46 am

Why on Nirn should Skyrim be sixist? The culture has a long history of strong warrior-women, going all the way back to Kyne herself.
Warning: Here there be Obscure Texts.
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/shor-son-shor-full

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:49 am

Must have gotten deleted in the lock.

Do you have a link? Do you at least remember the site? Since when are pre release interviews "lore"? Does Skyrim's portrayal of Nords contradict any lore actually given in one of the past games?

According to this, which is all the in game lore descriptions of Nords:

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/races-tamriel-nord

Nords are fierce warriors who are naturally resistant to cold, are artists and are a hardy folk. No where do I see that Nord women are weak or are considered to be.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:52 pm

Think of it from a gameplay perspective, brand new player to ES buys Skyrim cos of OMG I canz keel dragggonnsss??? (<< Actually what made me notice Skyrim in the first place

then I read up some about it, and yeah, I'm hooked. I thought of myself as more of an action adventure/racing type player (GTA, Saints Row, Red Dead, Forza, Driver, Test Drive etc etc), but yeah, skyrim just has that special something that I can't explain)

Aaaaanyway sorry for that, tends to happen, it's happening now as I type.... I digress

New ES player, loaded it up for the first time, takes a nice looking Nord female, gets in-game and the first thing that happens is Ralof tells you to hurry into the keep and stay there til the threat is gone. Very different game indeed if they cared about sixuality.

That's just gameplay wise, it would svck to play a female if all they could do was get married, clean up, cook and sweep the floors.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:08 am

it really does seem like Bethesda is deathly afraid of upsetting its tiny almost nonexistent female fan base, and subscribing to political correctness, it's sad really.

*ahem*

Yes, it really is "sad" when a company attempts to stop the perpetuation of [censored] social trends. Good on you for being so progressive. :rolleyes:

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:58 pm

One of the most noticeable differences is the political correctness. In many situations there was more women soldiers then male soldiers, giving this is supposed to be a racist, sixist society; I cringe every time I hear someone say "sons and daughters of Skyrim", it's like someone who refuses to say policeman because they think it's offensive, instead insisting they are a policeperson or policepeople. I don't think they should be no women soldiers, there should be a hand few but they should certainly be the exception to the rule; it really does seem like Bethesda is deathly afraid of upsetting its tiny almost nonexistent female fan base, and subscribing to political correctness, it's sad really.

Opinions ?

I never noticed. I've been too busy playing the game and having fun. Now that you've pointed it out... I still won't notice because I'll be too busy plaing the game and having fun.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:01 am

I gave evidence earlier on...

It was said in a Todd Howard interview.

Link?

He's done a lot of interviews.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:12 am

According to this, which is all the in game lore descriptions of Nords:

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/races-tamriel-nord

Nords are fierce warriors who are naturally resistant to cold, are artists and are a hardy folk. No where do I see that Nord women are weak or are considered to be.

Yeah, that's what I thought. I don't really care one way or the other if they were a sixist society or the other; the only thing that would have "bothered" me were if there had been a previous precident set for Skyrim/Nords being sixist which was changed for Skyrim. But it looks like that's not the case.

Something else that's interesting to note; Morrowind gives Nord men and women the same amount of Strength. Same intelligence. Men have more endurance whlie women have more willpower. Seems like even if Nord men tried to keep the women from doing something they'd be more than willing to fight over it. Not to mention, liike I pointed out earlier, there's some voice dialogue that seems to mock even the idea of Nord women not being on equal footing with men.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:18 pm

*ahem*

Yes, it really is "sad" when a company attempts to stop the perpetuation of [censored] social trends. Good on you for being so progressive. :rolleyes:

In a totally tolerant society game developer should be able to make games about anything they want, accurate to lore previously established, political correct charged censorship only serves to fuel resentment and distance between social groups. It's truly depressing that game developers and culture/media in general has to conform to this.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:50 am

So now a fantasy world that doesn't exist outside the imagination of some computer game developers isn't sixist enough for somebody's liking.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:42 am

I really don't see a problem here either...

Mind you, most of the time ancient societies were not as sixist as people think. In an area like Skyrim, gender equality wouldn't be inheard of due to the harsh climate.

That said: Unless your a goosestepping lunatic, making a game that most people would call gender and race friendly isn't that difficult really. I don't see it as Beth really INTENTIONALLY did all this as much as they just kind of made their product. sixism really never has been a huge deal in ES that I can remember. Racism maybe, but not sixism.