Yeah, I thought about that.

I wonder if Ulfric is playing another game besides Skyrim now. Maybe "Sims Windhelm". This is why the city's issues aren't being addressed well. You only have so many hours in a sims game to get menial tasks done. He's probably overwhelmed, probably needs to take a bath, get some exercise, let alone help the dunmer. His fatigue guage is going down quick. He probably wishes he bought Skyrim instead.

It's better managed than some other holds. It has far fewer problems than most. Windhelm, Markath, Riften, and Winterhold certainly have large internal problems that aren't being dealt with very well.


He didn't try talking. Killing someone without even trying to talk IS Barbarism. Violence is the last resort of the civilized; for Ulfric it was his first resort.


A few intimidating comments by an official doesn't mean they are guilty of any crimes. Nor does an official being scary. I know she's a vampire, but that doesn't necessarily make her evil even if most vampires are evil.


Really, you don't even think it is managed better than RIFTEN?

Maybe his computer is like mine, and is too ancient to play the game properly, so it's hecka laggy and bogged down with all that CC and takes like an hour for the characters to pee, let alone sort out their differences. He shouldn't have downloaded all of those hairstyles.

Hmm, I'll have to go back and look into that. I have the impression that Ulfric said he'd help if the banning of Talos worship was publically disavowed.

I believe he was offered as well, according to the Jarl of Markarth. I can't check right now because I just deposed him.

That's not quite true. The Thalmor started interfering in Skyrim as of the Markarth Incident, which was engineered (as Jarl Igmund himself admits) by the former leadership. They made a deal with Ulfric that Talos worship would be allowed in Markarth, and Igmund says when the Thalmor found out about it, he was forced to throw Ulfric and his men in prison.

Igmund tells you that he made the offer.

http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv146/gmosko/igmund1.jpg
http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv146/gmosko/igmund.jpg
http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv146/gmosko/igmund2.jpg

Ok, there's one exception, which is one Ulfric has personal experience with. In it he learned that worshipping Talos is ok, but it can cause problems if one makes a huge public spectacle of it that will be heard in other provinces. Nonetheless, the Thalmor didn't have a presence in Skyrim after Markath. It was only after Ulfric started the Stormcloak rebellion that the Thalmor were able to move in.

That doesn't say either way, actually. You can say "promise me this or I won't help you" and then later the person could say "we promised this".

Ahh, I looked it up just now. It is the Bear of Markarth that says Ulfric demanded to be allowed to worship Talos openly before letting the legion into the city. Granted it isn't an unbiased source, but the Jarl doesn't contradict it by what he says either.

Right. Imperial propaganda after the fact.

Point being that no matter whether Ulfric demanded it or not, a deal was struck and the jarl (who's an imperial man through and through) reneged. It was not Ulfric's rebellion that caused the Thalmor to start interfering in Skyrim.

Source?

Well if we're talking about heresay, the Bear of Markarth is at the top of the list =P

Well, it's more like Forsworn propoganda if anything, written by an Imperial scholar. He also wrote The "Madmen" of the Reach.

I'm not saying it's necessarily true. But the Jarl doesn't say the promise was his idea. The Bear of Markarth is the only thing that tries to assert who's idea it was. I'd only say that it isn't out of Ulfric's character to have done something like that. On the other hand, he might not have. We can't know for sure.


Pretty sure Hadvar says something to that effect as do others talking about the Stormcloak rebellion and how it has actually made the worship of Talos more difficult.


I don't disagree. It is the only source that tries to give an identity for where the "free worship of Talos in Markarth" idea came from. As I saided, it isn't unbiased and could be wrong, but no one else says who's idea it was.

I only mention it because it is clearly where I got the idea Ulfric was behind it. It also emphasizes how the Jarl doesn't claim credit for the idea. Again though, we can't really know.

The Reachmen who runs the stables also says it was the Empire who promised Ulfric free worship. Not the best source, but he was there (that is, in the Reach), unlike Alvor. It would seem that Igmund, Titus, and Ulfric all had an agreement here.

Counterpoint, The Thalmor started interfering after they caught wind of the Jarl's deal with Ulfric. That doesn't mean they WEREN'T going to get around to killing people for worshiping Talos.

The fact is, they NEED to kill Talos as a religion if they're to achieve their "destroy space/time" ends.

Ulfric can't be held responsible for the Thalmor being [censored].

I like the Jarl of Winterhold, he reminds me of some Grandpa complaining about a power station in his city.

Not saying he is. You could also say he can't be held responsible for the people that fight against the Stormcloaks. That doesn't mean he's innocent. The Thalmor very clearly want Civil War or something like it in Skyrim as the game makes clear. Ulfrics actions play right into their hand, which isn't something one can dismiss. It doesn't help poor Ulfric's case that he didn't even try to do things peacefully (of course, doing that wouldn't make him High King if it worked). I can't really call a guy who instigates a civil war that may well have been unnecessary a "realist" or even someone respectable, not if he didn't even try to avoid it. The man has some major faults, and a lot of people died because of it.

Take the Skyrim situation, if things really were bad enough to leave the Empire and the Empire was stretched then, then we have the makings of a really popular rebellion. Maybe that would have taken 10 more years to happen, but it certainly would have been worth it if it didn't result in a civil war. Given how Hammerfell was handled, if all of Skyrim was united the Emperor probabably would have just let them go. I know some people hate comparisons with the real world, but I think valid ones can be made. Popular rebellions and movements needing a decade or more to gain widespread report are common enough. I'm not saying Ulfric could know all this by any means, but the man could have at least TRIED not to split Skyrim in two; he didn't.

Of course, judging the Jarls is difficult and I think it is perhaps easy to take the Lore too seriously. There seems to be quite a bit of it that is based on a sort of twisted/macabre humor by the devs. The Jarls are pretty much a list of bad/weird leader tropes (and not in any complicated or interesting way, generally). The TES universe tends to skew this way in general -- note the work put into all the evil questlines, whereas despite the fact you are a hero, there's not a lot of involved heroic work (nothing like the Daedric quests, Dark Brotherhood, or Thieves Guild).

I think there's also a potential problem with holes in the lore and worse, sort of rushed programming that can lead to judging things too readily. To me it is sometimes hard to tell what they intended verses what they didn't want to/think about fleshing out verses what is poorly fleshed out or looks bad due to "good enough" scripting. Ulfric's apparent apathy regarding the Dunmer and Argonians, for instance. Is that because he doesn't care? Did they decide they didn't want to go into his racism? Did they just run out of resources and didn't have time to put in him talking about it? I don't know, and it could certainly be that they intended him to be troubled by it and unaware of abuse by Nords (though that seems unlikely to me). Perhaps similarly he isn't as power-hungry as he appears (and unlike what most everyone says about him). There's enough stuff that's done in a rather shallow manner in the game that I can't be sure.

So what was the Jarl supposed to do? What would have been the optimal action for him to take?

Edit: If I had to guess, I'd wager that the Thalmor were in fact the ones that came up with the idea of promising Talos worship. They would have been the only ones to benefit from such an offer being extended.

Which is why Jarl Ravencrone is my favorite Jarl. She doesn't fall under any kind of bad trope, unless your character dislikes mages or mystics (which some Nords don't, of course). She's more pragmatic than some person "lost in visions". She cares about her people. Ask her where she stands on the war.. she says "I stand right here. In Morthal." Her bigger point of view is that she's sees "dark times ahead, and we need to be united now more than ever".

She's shrewd as well, and acts cool headed. She can play different sides and be at that Thalmor party in MQ, but she warns you that they're all vipers. She just knows how to be diplomatic, instead of being prone to angry fits. At the same time, if you're her Thane (or if you helped kill the vampire in her town), she'll help you screw up the party a little bit. She seems like the only Jarl with a sense of humor.

1. Petition the High King.
2. Petition the Empire.
3. Come up with his own fighting force.
4. NOT offer talos worship as a reward.

Though, it seems more likely to me that it was Ulfric who demanded it and he agreed to those terms hoping no one would pay attention. Certainly there's no one in the game saying it was the Jarl's idea and there are people in the game saying it was Ulfric's.

Doesn't make it a good decision on the Jarl's part, mind you, but I think it mitigates things a fair bit.

The time frame for this is hazy. I'm pretty sure I've heard it in game that the request for help was issued during the great war, Ulfric gathered militia after "escaping" the Thalmor, and drove the Forsworn out, Thalmor found out about the deal, and Ulfric goes to prison for decades. The game is vague about the details in this time frame, but that's the best understanding I can glean from this.

I believe you're correct on when the request was made.(I can't remember if he requested the empire or the high king though) Igmund may have been desperate by the time Ulfric came around. Still doesn't excuse him offering Talos worship as an incentive to help him. He admits he really shouldn't have when you talk to him.

Of course it's a bad idea. Some would contend such a decision shouldn't be held against him based on the cliche "desperate times call for depserate measures", but the repercussions of the decision are too much to forgive it on those grounds. This seems to be why Igmund is so focused on purging the Forsworn from the Reach. I think he hopes it will provide some form of redemption.