Being more concerned about all of Skyrim than a few griping Dunmer is more excusable.

Then give up your post as Jarl. And it isn't a 'concern', it's a power-grab. He doesn't care about Skyrim.

I think he cares about Skyrim a great deal. He just cares about personal power a bit more than that. It's up to you whether or not that's acceptable, but I don't mind it.

I don't mind his desire for power. It's only natural. I think he think truly believes he can do good as high king.

Only problem is, he's a religious nut to the point that he put his country in a civil war over it. I'll kill him for that alone. People like this in real life deserve to die. And it isn't something I find amusing in an rpg.

Considering by all accounts Skyrim was in pretty good shape overall and worship of Talos was not banned in practice, I don't see what the problem with his one regret was. He had nothing to regret about being a ruler. I personally think he made a wrong choice by allowing himself to fight Ulfric, but considering Ulfric cleverly used a psychological weakpoint of Nords, I understand it.

You need to remember when Ulfric talks about stuff like that, being part of the Empire and not rebelling to him mean the person is a bad leader no matter what. He's a very biased source. The biggest complaints with any particulars anyone has of Torygg is that he gave pro-Empire speeches, which is a pretty small complaint.


While he might not be able to do a lot about the squalid and horrible living conditions of the Dunmer, he could certainly do something about the abuse they receive from Nords in the city. He could also allow Argonians to live in the city and have decent living and working conditions (at least by Dunmer standards), rather than let them be used as little more than slave labor. I believe the Dunmer currently aren't allowed to live anywhere but the Grey District (correct me if I am wrong). He could change that at least.

These are things that wouldn't take much a time, merely a speech or two and an edict or two and that's it. Perhaps some people being punished by the law. No significant amount of wealth or forces spent, however.

So yeah, I consider Ulfric a pretty poor ruler because of this.

It doesn't help that he started a Civil War that has torn the country in two and cost countless lives without even TRYING to talk.

The difference between him and certain RL terrorists is that it's hard NOT to be the sort of guy who WOULD put your country in a civil war over your religion when the free practice of it means your execution.

Even the baker becomes political when baking is outlawed.

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I agree with you with regards to the Dunmer, but there is actually a very good reason that the Argonians are not allowed in the city. The Dunmer and the Argonians are very violent towards each other, which stems from the centuries where the Dunmer enslaved and treated the Argonians horribly, and in recent years when Argonians have exploited the weakness of Morrowind to get them back. It's a matter of keeping the peace. Even Brunwuulf Free-Winter says he can't allow Argonians in for that reason, until those conflicts are resolved.

But Ulfric should definitely do something about racism against the Dunmer, in my opinion.

Let's keep in mind, however, that before Torygg was killed there were no Thalmor in Skyrim and the "banning" of Talos worship was not enforced. Numerous characters in the game say this.

While I'm sure this was true in a lot of places, Ulfric himself and his men were imprisoned for 10 years for worshipping Talos in Markarth. So it definitely was enforced if you did it openly.

That makes sense as a temporary measure then. I missed that aspect somehow. It doesn't justify ignoring the poor working conditions or living conditions of Argonians though. Decent living areas could be made for them outside the city while these issues were worked on. I think we can still take issue with the fact Ulfric is doing nothing regarding Argonian-Dunmer tensions or the horrible problems both groups face. I retract the part about allowing them into the city, but steps could be taken towards that eventual goal.

The only case I can sympathize with is that nothing had been addressed about the White Gold for 30 years (I think?). People were still worshipping in private though, as Alvor says. It seemed to be like a law not taken very seriously, until it was brought to the forefront by Ulfric in Markarth. It's something the empire definitely needed to address, and we can thank Ulfric for that. Except he made it worse for Nords. He's gone about it in the most militant way. It doesn't sound like he's ever been willing to work it out in different ways. Instead, he kills the king for it. Simply because he's a "symbol". Imagine that scenario actually playing out in real life. It's crazy. Kind of like the story of Cromwell, maybe.

I agree, but again, he's in the middle of a war (that yes, he started), and it's not on top of his list of priorities. For me, I'd like to see what he does once the war is over and what actions he takes towards the Dunmer and Argonians. That will be a true test of his character, and we will see how it pans out (hopefully). I wish they had advanced that in-game so we could see Windhelm changing. But even if the Empire wins nothing really changes in Windhelm.

He wasn't imprisoned for just worshiping Talos. Essentially he was imprisoned for doing so in as inconvenient a way as possible, stirring up problems for the Empire as a whole. If he didn't demand that the Jarl loudly and publicly allow Talos worship, then no one would have been arrested.

I'm not saying the Talos issue was ideal, but Ulfric largely made it a bigger problem than it had to be, imho, and how he went about things has allowed the Thalmor to enter into Skyrim which makes things worse for everyone.

In a very real way, the Jarl of Markath is the one who started the entire civil war. He is an oathbreaker and monster.

No arguments here, I hate the guy. And the Silver-Bloods. You couldn't pay me to live in Markarth.

A cool fact is to consider Ulfric is attempting to be the PC of the game and going about it in a PC-esque way of slaying people and doing big dramatic stunts. It's just, well, he's NOT the hero and it is making him come off as simultaneously cool as hell (to the Windhelm populace) and UTTERLY INSANE (to everyone else).

Besides, while Hadvar's Uncle is quite correct that no one was enforcing the law, it's also clear the Thalmor intended to eventually press the issue. It's not like Skyrim is the only place with roving anti-Talos death squads.

It caused me to do a Stormcloak playthrough when I realized that the Jarl of Markath was going to stay in power if I supported the Empire. Ditto, Maven Black Briar.

Most of the Jarls, sans Balgruuf and Ulfric, aren't laid back. They are downright incompetent, self-absorbed, or unaffected by the world around them.

I always thought it was interesting that at the beginning of the game, HE thinks he's the hero of Skyrim, but by the end of the Civil War questline, no matter what side you join, he realizes it's you, and acts accordingly (by asking you to behead him or by asking you to kill Tullius, then telling you to go save the world while he becomes High King la dee da).

From my understanding, Windhelm decided to make Ulfric the Jarl, he didn't even ask for it, and hes busy fighting a war. It makes sense he's not really running the city too well.

And the Thalmor came into Skyrim to arrest Ulfric and his men for being Talos worshippers after they kicked the Forsworn out of Marthal *for* the Empire. Its a bit unclear from the ingame whether whoever made the agreement to let them do so for freeing the city had authority or not, but the Empire just more or less used them as cheap shock troops and for Ulfric's Thu'um talent to beat the Forsworn there, then ditched them straight into the Thalmor. Though they got away and started the full scale rebellion after.

There's certainly issues with some of the Stormcloaks, and the overly nationalist Nords going out of their way to harass the refugees (Theres also hard working, but perfectly fine Dunmer running farms outside of Windhelm, not cramped into a slum) and migrant workers, but Ulfric himself doesn't seem to have an overly flawed outlook.

As others have said, the Jarl Igmund of Markarth is the reason the war started. He says that he told Ulfric to take back Markarth from the Forsworn in exchange for allowing Talos worship since Igmund hoped the Thalmor wouldn't know. Unfortunately, after Ulfric took the city, the Thalmor found out and Igmund threw Ulfric under the bus by having him arrested. Are you telling me Ulfric was unjust in his actions since he conquered a city and thus an entire hold just for freedom of religion yet was imprisoned. Are you telling me you wouldn't act the same way if you were left to rot in prison just for your religion after taking back an entire city and region?

I believe the exact series of events was the Jarl of Markath OFFERED to allow Nords the option to worship Talos openly if they beat back the Forsworn, which they took.

Which occurred about 2 years after the Great War.

Ulfric joined in the fight, despite being a prince, and after they won they were betrayed by the Jarl who arrested them all for worshiping Talos (due to the Thalmor catching wind of the plot).

It's an amazingly venal and cowardly series of events.

Ulfric got the position from his father, who was Jarl of Windhelm. Ulfric was in prison when his father died, and I believe he was released to become Jarl of Windhelm, but I'm not exactly sure how that went down.

his words:

"I entered a city in mourning [. . .] The people lifted me up and carried me to the throne. The throne of Ysgamor. The throne of my father. I only hope I can prove worthy." (some guessing at the end there).

You're right, I forgot about that. So did they release him just to become Jarl of Windhelm? Because that sounds weird. "Hey, you're a criminal, now go lead that city!"