Roggvir just believed it was a fair duel.

Because it was.

I'm well aware that there are seperate Stormcloak prisoners and Talos worships. But the Talos worshipers are still Stormcloaks, or at least Stormcloak supporters. To the Imperials, it has nothing to do with the fact that they worship Talos, but rather that they're at best Stormcloak supporters, and at worst actual Stormcloaks.

As for Thorald, he did not fall it, his brother explicitly says that Thorald was fighting for the Stormcloaks when he went missing.

And as for keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim, what is going on right now is nothing compared to what the Thalmor want to do. And it's the Empire standing in their way. Hence why they started the rebellion in the first place.

Edit: Roggvir broke Imperial Law. Like it or hate it, that's the law of Solitude, and both he and Ulfric broke it. The Imperials are in every right in executing them both for their crimes.

Regardless, he helped him, and that's why he was executed.

If agreeing with the stormcloaks cause is enough reason to execute someone, they'd have to go through a huge chunk of the population. There are people who support the stormcloaks openly in Solitude, Falkreath, Markarth, etc. The talos worshipers are singled out because they're the ones caught by the Thalmor for worship. Has nothing to do with them being for the stormcloaks or not.



Well based off my own play throughs and the wiki page, I'm going to have to disagree. He may have liked the stormcloaks (as all the Gray-manes do), but I saw no indication he was one.



The Thalmor don't want a full on invasion, at least yet. They're still hurt from the great war despite the victory, and it's much easier for them to just integrate their prisons and their spies and their liasons. They don't need to send 10,000 men over the border at once, when they can send 10,000 men over the border slowly over time.

And the Imperials won't do anything to stop them.

The reason the Imperial soldiers attack them is because they're part of the Stormcloak faction.

I'm getting my information directly from Avulstein Gray-Mane's dialogue and the text in the Imperial Missive. The Creation Kit is a useful tool in debating stuff in TES.


They're not covertly moving into Skyrim, there's no hint or indication of it. There is indication that they have long-term plans for Skyrim that involves weakening the Empire over time. Whatever the case, they're limited by what they can do under the radar and what the White Gold Concordat said. Otherwise, believe or not, the Empire has every right to stop in and slap them down. It's also implied that the Imperials aren't going to be at peace with the Thalmor forever, and they don't want to. If anything they've got more reason to hate the Thalmor than the Nords do, except they're subtle enough to be able to play along and bide their time.

But they're not.....or they would be stormcloak soldiers, not just talos worshipers. As you even mentioned earlier, they do try and arrest and imprison people for talos worship like Igmund the Slakd, and he's certainly not an active stormcloak soldier. So I don't see why it's hard to believe



Contents of the Imperial missive:




Nowhere does it say he's a stormcloak.







If the Empire could "slap down the Thalmor", they wouldn't have surrendered in the first place. There wouldn't be a Thalmor embassy, a private thalmor prison, and thalmor patrols along the roads with Thalmor interrogators and Liaisons in Imperial cities. Even talk to the Thalmor in Markarth, or Elenwyn. They are there purely to keep an eye on the Imperials and make sure they stay in line. That doesn't sound like the Imperials have much "say" at all.

What you call subtlety playing along I call subservience, and that's exactly what they're doing. The Imperials aren't cleverly devising any strategy that I can see. They're not actively pursuing any real plan against the Thalmor that's mentioned. All they talk about is "we don't agree with the Aldmeri" or "we had to surrender". I don't care that they're not happy about it, I care what they're going to do about it. And since they're content to let their own "citizens" get slaughtered for worshiping a God a lot of them worship as well, I don't consider them protectors either.

As for Cyrodill suffering more than Skyrim, a ton of Nords from Skyrim fought in the great war. As repeated throughout the game, the Imperials sent the Nords abroad to fight and die, and then the Imperials came back and told them "You know that Ysgramor/tiber septim guy? Yeah, he didn't become a God, shut up about him or you're dead".

Then they become shocked that the Nords revolted....

If they broke imperial law, then so did Torygg by accepting the duel.

Thats not so. Thalmor asked for and received a prisoner from Tullius based on suspicion of Talos worship. They took him and tortured him to make him confess. See Imperial Missive. Plus other un-named prisoners being taken by the justiciar.

They're mechanically part of the Stormcloak faction. And Igmund did not try to arrest anyone, he was what was preventing the Thalmor from arresting somebody in the first place.


It does say he was a prisoner, and the wording implies he was a prisoner before being taken by the Thalmor. Which actually concurs with what Avulstein's suspicions that the Imperials captured him. Not to mention that the leader of the Legion somehow was in a position to be made aware of it. General Tullius wouldn't have known if they had just abducted some random Nord minding his own business somewhere. And here's some of Avulstein's dialogue, on the topic of Thorald.



Yet with all of this it isn't enough for the Thalmor, not by a long shot. They want more, yet if they could just smash their way to Skyrim and take it by force, they would have done it by now.

That's because they're busy with a more immediate problem: the Stormcloak rebellion. After an Imperial victory, General Tullius mentions that he isn't so sure about the peace they've made with the Thalmor. Legate Rikke is even convinced that all of Tamriel will be at war in a few years. Legate Justianus Quintius, writer of The Great War, also seems convinced that the peace won't last forever, and that something will need to be done regarding the Thalmor.

Yes they fought in the Great War but no part of Skyrim was occupied by the Thalmor, they never had to worry about it, simply because they won the geographical lottery of being the furthest province from the Dominion's reach at the time. On the other hand, I can understand they wouldn't understand because it wasn't their province on the line. Was there some expectations by the Nords that the Imperials only exist to die so Skyrim doesn't have to put up with the Thalmor? The Stormcloaks are no better than those Imperials that place the welfare of Cyrodiil above that of Skyrim. Hence one of the reasons I choose the Legion: the Imperial soldiers and their Nordic allies care about something greater than just a single province.

It wasn't accepting the duel that was breaking the law. Ufric committed regicide and treason against the Empire. If Torygg somehow won, he'd be let off because he wasn't the one who issued the challenge, he was merely defending himself.

But did the imperials arrest Thorald for worshipping Talos?

And nowhere in the missive does it say anything about him being tortured.

The Imperials presumably captured him when he was a Stormcloak. The Thalmor then would have taken him away. And while I suspect the real reason was because he was part of a powerful and influential clan, the likely excuse that he was probably a Talos worshiper is pretty solid, considering almost all, if not all, Stormcloak soldiers worship Talos.

Whatever the case I doubt Tullius has any reason to care that the Thalmor are taking away a few captured enemy soldiers. Disregarding the repercussions on Clan Grey-Mane and the Thalmor's secret plans, it seems like a windfall to him.

If the duel was against imperial law, then Torygg should have had Ulfric arrested right there. Why didn't he? And since he didn't, what right did the imperials have to detain Ulfric and prevent a moot from confirming the outcome of the duel?

It doesn't matter. We both know might makes right and that's really all that counts. All the imperials' blather about their laws is meaningless. They throw them out the window when it suits their needs, even to the point of using the Thalmor against their own citizens.

Torryg may not be a Nord's Nord like the way Ulfric or Balgruuf is viewed, but he is a Nord. Once Ulfric threw the gauntlet, he felt that there was no choice but to accept. In that situation, perception trumped reality and law. Even Sybelle Stentor acknowledged that fact, the High King knew he had to fight Ulfric in a duel, regardless of how ridiculous the odds were. And Ulfric wasn't interested in a straight up fight, he could have taken Torryg without using the Thu'um, he just wanted to make a political statement. That's why I view his use of the voice as blasphemy, he didn't 'speak with true need'.

If might makes right, then why all the hate for the empire that conquered all of Tamriel?

Torryg is fine with the fight. Not only does he agree to it, he tells you himself later in Sovngarde. He's proud that he faced him, and even knew he was going to lose.

Personally, I don't like that Ulfric just doesn't see it for the pathetic event that it is. Have you ever beaten up someone who you knew didn't stand a chance? It makes you feel like crap. Sooner or later, for most people at least. Yet Ulfric just acts so nonchalant about it. I hate Galmar even more because he's refers to Torryg as "Dead King Torryg", instead of being cool and simply calling him Torryg. He doesn't give Torryg any credit for standing his ground. The guy's already dead, yknow. Leave it alone. Only the most screwed up human beings talk like this.

Torryg had the choice - accept the duel and take his chances, or reject the duel and the moot would be called. Would have been better all around if he rejected the duel. There would have been no need for a civil war. The moot would appoint a real king instead of an imperial puppet. Then Skyrim united under a strong king could decide whether to accept the WGC or reject it.

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