It's not "my" civilization. I'm not the one who writes these games. You're kidding yourselves though if you think they're just going to dump the empire in one fell swoop. Especially in a crappy scenario like the one in this game. It's kind of one of their big staples. People don't usually write things for 20 years only to destroy them in a few quests.

Morrowind?

What was crappy about Morrowind?

You stated its not like beth will dump something major like the empire suddenly in a few quests.

Morrowind begs to differ. We don't yet know how the empire will fall. Doesn't have to go in a crappy way.

That's not up to anyone else but the Divines to decide. And the divines made him one of them, end of discussion. Proof? I recieve a blessing when I pray at his altars. Who else would cast this blessing if he was not divine? A secret clown giving me a buff from behind a tree?

That's the word you used, that the empire represents civilization.

They won't be dumping the empire in one fell swoop, because its end has been coming for quite a while, as I already said.

I personally went with Stormcloaks because they were fighting for the right to worship Talos. There's also the fact that the Imperials have turned into a bunch of cowering wimps licking the boots of the Thalmor. Also, they wear plateskirts. Those are the only reasons. I don't really like the Stormcloaks, but they're fighting for the better side of the coin.

Afaik the Thalmor position is one that plays on common misconceptions and temple dogma. It wasn't simply ability as an emperor and general that resulted in the ninth divine, but the mantling of Shezzar.

Yeah, it does. That's how the writers generally portray it. It doesn't mean it's "my civilization". I'm just saying. You can bring up the usual social-political stuff from the real world when it comes to "empires", but I'm talking about video game lore. Not earth history. And from what I can tell, it's lowest points was when there was a lack of a legitimate dragonborn. Otherwise, it's painted in a good light.

This goes without mentioning that the empire in TES is more about religion than politics. From it's start, it's two main ideals was Incorporating both human and elven religions to create what we know as the 9 divines. Syncretism and compromise. A hallmark of any civilized people. And warding off daedra and their worshippers. Much war can be created from all of these religious differences, but it doesn't mean they're uncivilized.

Well considering that the imperials wanted to chop off my head just for being me.. I'm going Stormcloak.

Neither was I. I said "your civilization" to refer to the fact that you used the word to describe the empire.

I think probably the people who died in the wars for its founding would say those were low points. There's a reason Black Marsh and Elsweyr took their first opportunity to leave a weakened empire behind.

I don't agree that syncretism has anything to do with civilization. The term civilization is loaded anyway. It usually means "mine is better than yours" whether it actually is or not, and "that gives me the right to force it on you." Regardless, it doesn't tell me why I should care whether Cyrodiil rules over Skyrim or not. Contrary to what imperials say, the Nords don't need their rule.

The Empire was benevolent under the Dragonborn dynasties? Hardly. During it's rise, during Redguard, they are a villainous faction.

I honestly do like stormcloaks better. I think the imperial legion is begging to get crumpled, and the fact that he was with me at Helgen really set it in for me. Not to mention that commander (or whatever rank she was) at Helgen wanted me killed despite the fact I was not on the list. Ruined my reputation for the empire instantly. I still listened to both sides of the story, but I was biased the whole way. Chose stormcloaks 2 times, gonna chose them on this playthrough too.

My first character was a Stormcload because I had no idea that they were so racist, and I was a Khajiit. Now I am with the Imperials, the only thing I don't like is that they gave into the Thalmor. But I'm mainly Imperial now because I never create a Nord character (they seem like a boring choice if you ask me), I'm either a Khajiit, Argonian, Dark Elf, and more recently a Wood Elf.

The very first time I played I was going to join the Stormcloaks (the Imperials, after all, had been about to execute my character), but then I learned how the dark elves and Argnonians were treated in Windhelm, and that Ulfric was considered a Thalmor asset, and then I purchased property in Solitude (no way no how was I going to risk bringing the civil war to my doorstep!). Maybe if I decide to create a new character I'll choose a Nord, so that I can rationalize siding with the Stormcloaks.

Fair enough. I understand some people wouldn't. I can't think of a more civilized concept though. To me, it seems like the only way to evolve societies. In the TES world, it seems to be that way too. The only other alternative is war. There's always been that element in the games too - variants of the same factions Alessia experienced.. Mer and Men (Nords especially). I would bet on the middle ground every time.

Franky, I think Legate Fasendil out of all of the imperial/stormcloak leaders, is the only one who's actually thought the conflict out. It's nothing more than a distraction, while Ulfric postures and pontificates about skyrim's 'independence', the Thalmor are laughing their heads off at how well he's throwing a spanner into the works.

How about live and let live? I'm fine with "middle ground" if it's not enforced with coercion.

According to the dossier, they lose if Ulfric wins. Their only advantage is in chaos, for which the empire is just as responsible. They could have let Skyrim secede as they did their other provinces.

This is good. I'm ALL for that.

When it comes to chaos, I think all sides can recieve blame for that. Though Ulfric is still fighting the last war, not seeing the threat for what it is. I find him sympathetic, but I don't agree with him in any respect. He of all people should know the strategy that the Thalmor are employing, and he still is playing into their hands. That would be nice Serethil, unfortunately, a war like the Skyrim Civil War is one that has an unfortunate tendency to drag bystanders into it, on purpose or on accident. I'd just settle for winning on my own terms (not making Maven or Throngvor a Jarl for starters).

So you're going to enforce on Nords something the Khajiit and Argonians were not willing to do? It's not like the imperial Nords think any better of beast races. Khajiit caravans aren't allowed into any city, and according to one guy in Solitude, Torygg kept Argonians out as well. However a Stormcloak jarl has an Argonian housecarl and the Stormcloak jarl in Riften has two Bosmer in her household. Some racists.

What did the empire do for Valenwood or Morrowind? Nothing. It was Skyrim who opened its doors to Dunmer refugees after Vvardenfell, giving them Nord land and allowing them to be self-governed. That's downright un-Tamrielic. In any other situation a region would kick an old enemy when it's down for power or territory.

I think it is the imperials who do not see the threat- that knuckling under to the Thalmor and letting them have free surveillance and veto power will only make the inevitable confrontation harder. And they'll have weakened Talos who's their greatest weapon.
We're talking about whether or not it is a moral good to enforce "civilization" on Tamriel as the empire did.

Well.... no matter how "enlightened" the purpose, innocent bystanders always have, and likely always will, get dead during action. In games, in real life, in books, movies.... "Friendly fire isn't."

It's one of those "sympathy" things "activators" do (activators in this instance being writers - no matter the medium....)

Stormcloaks. I just want to fight the Thalmor, and after doing the Missing in Action quest and coming across dozens of instances where Imperial soldiers aided Thalmor justiciars with prisoners (or even killed the talos worshipping prisoner if it got free from the Thalmor), I realized going with the Imperials wouldn't allow for that.

Sure, some Imperials don't like the Thalmor. But they're not going to do anything about it anytime soon. They talk about "one day uniting against the Aldmeri dominion"....pfft....off with that noise. Here and now, dragonborn vs high elves.

Let's do it.

Heh. Yep. On a "personal" toon by toon basis, I kill Thalmor wherever I find them. But that's one person.... That's NOT going to fix the underlying issue.