True, but the issue is one of neutrality in the current conflict and whether or not that is even possible under the circumstances.

Holds that support Ulfric are in open rebellion and are held and defended (if need be) by Stormcloak troops. They are neither neutral nor pro-Imperial. Holds that do not openly support Ulfric are Imperial by default, because they remain part of the Empire AND are not rebelling against it; if the need arises, they will be defended and held by the Legion, IMO whether the local Jarl likes it or not, because they are part of the Empire and the Legion is there to keep it that way. I don't see Tullius sitting back and letting the Stormcloaks take and hold a vital position like Whiterun simply because the Jarl there is too "neutral" to ask him for help.

And Balgruuf can't really be neutral about it anyway, he can either rebel with the Stormcloaks or he can stick with the status quo which means the Empire. IMO not wanting the Legion in his city is not the same thing as being truly "stand apart" neutral, because I don't think such a thing is possible in his situation. Not actively supporting a rebellion against a political entity that you are already part of and subordinate to by default is not the same thing as observing a conflict between two factions that you are *not* part of at all and refusing to take a side. We tend to treat Balgruuf as though he's doing the latter and therefore "not Imperial" when this is not the case.

And I'm not trying to make Balgruuf look like a bad leader, not by any means, he's one of the Jarls I like best, I just think he's been idolized somewhat and the presumed neutrality thing is one reason why and I don't completely buy it for the reasons I've stated.

There are historical precedents for that. The people of the Middle Ages didn't view the age difference as unfair, as long as it was an actual challenge rather than an assassination. Single combat between kings and princes caused less bloodshed than all-out battles.

Except when it leads to a civil war that tears the country apart. Oh wait...

because ulfric didnt exactly do it publicly, he just ninja'd in whacked him and left soon as he could

if it were a public duel where they both agreed and people knew this there probably wouldnt be as much fuss as there is now

As jarl of Windhelm it kind of is his responsibility to look after his people, and as they have been living there for 160 years they are his people. He didn't force the dunmer to live in windhelm, but when he came into power he forced all the dunmer living in Windhelm to move into the run-down quarter.



The dunmer were living in Windhelm before he was jarl, but as I said above, he forced them all to move into the run down area, I'm really sorry I can't find the source I read this from, I will look for it (It was probably one of the wiki sites)




Well if it was the case that he didn't have the money to support HIS people and make their lives the same as others then he shouldn't have started the war in the first place. I know it sounds a bit stupid, but if he truly wanted the rebellion to give nords back their religious freedom then he could have just disobeyed the rules. If HE was attacked for that THEN he should have started the war, rather than initiating it. Or better yet he could have TALKED to torygg and avoided the war all together.


I am sure I remember Brunwulf saying that he plans to allow the integration of the argonians into windhelm but that he couldn't do it straight away as the racist nords in the city will cause trouble.

I had a hard time, too, and ended up playing my orc warrior as an imperial supporter. It was still hard to justify. I rp'ed her as a legion veteran, but that just makes it all the more a kick in the solar plexus that they were going to decapitate first and ask questions later. "We'll send your body to the stronghold." "Thanks [censored], but I'm from Cyr..." "Off with her head!"

Anyway, it helped that I made her a Companion and so when it came down to it, she wanted to defend her home against Ulfric's attack, and after that just saw it through. A soldier would understand that stuff happens under martial law and she had taken that risk by traveling in a war-ridden country. You could also play a Nord or imperial who believes the empire is better for Skyrim, and overlooks Helgen out of concern for the country and humanity's cause rather than take selfish revenge. Or you could play a Breton or Dunmer who doesn't want to see an independent, troublemaking Skyrim on the borders of your homeland.

And we don't know that Ulfric didn't have plans to do exactly the same thing, just like we don't know that his reason for keeping the Argonians out of the city proper in the meantime wasn't exactly the same as Brunwulf's reason. That was my point. People who have already decided that Ulfric is a racist automatically tend to assign racist motives to his policies when there is no clear evidence that those policies and motives are (or would be) any different than what Brunwulf's are (or would be under similar circumstances).

Also, I'm not going back to look up who said it... again... but can we please get past this notion that Ulfric is a child murderer? Seriously, there are a great many things being left up to imagination and interpretation in all of this... but that ain't one of 'em. Torygg may not have been a 50-something hardened combat veteran, he may have been someone that much older and more experience dudes still referred to as "boy," but he was not a "child-king." He was a grown man, the end.

Incorrect. On both counts. 1, the legal agreement that was made when they allowed the dunmer into skyrim stated that the dunmer were to be self governing. 2. Not a single dunmer was evicted from their home. They've never moved from the snow quarter.

Not surprising, the wiki sites are quite often wrong due to anyone being able to edit them.


Markarth Incident and the moot. He did both the things you stated.


He says the people won't accept them in. Not the nords. The dunmer are a bit upset with the argonians too.

Him that all depend who you a line with. With my last character who was a Breton, who escape with Hadvar, I stumbled at him whilst looking for something else. He was dressed as a imperial captain. After I done that quest, He dress as a stormcloak and try to kill my character. Here come the punch line, I did not made my mind which side I join.

If you didn't join a side yet, he just dresses according to whoever you escaped Helgen with because assumptions are fun.

Yeah, I escaped with Ralof on my chick so his 'costumes' were reversed for me, but it was still hilarious.

Thats a bizarrely silly anology. Its more akin to bumping into a gang of criminals moments before the police sting operation swoops down and arrests them. So your arrested because you happened to be standing near a bunch of criminals when they were arrested. Now the prison falls under attack do you escape with the criminals and label yourself as one. Or do you help the guards to prove you aren't with them so you can be a freeman.

No he says Nords at the end of his dialog he says "old habbits don't die easily and we nords are stubborn as stone" At no point in Skyrim is there shown to be any hostility between Argonians and Dunmer.

I'm not saying Ulfric started it, he's just continuing the attitude of keeping the Dunmer out of most of the city, and forcing the Argonians to live outside the walls.

Belyn Hlaalu's house isn't actually within the walls of Windhelm. The Nords in the city don't care because he isn't living in the city. And there is always an exception. Bringing up the few successful examples doesn't erase the fact Ulfric's short comings as a leader to non-nords.

Which means Ulfric is a selfish bastard and proves he's only interested in helping Nords. Why should the Dunmer or anyone else support a leader who offers them nothing in return.

The Stewart serves the Jarl and at no point do you renovate the city you just furnish a house, big difference. The Stewart is a servant not a man with actual authority. The Jarl is leader of the city and the hold doing any kind of construction or major renovations would need his permission.

I never said anything about leaving Windhelm. But its a fact the Dark Elves in Windhelm aren't allowed to live anywhere outside the Gray Quarter. Thats said in-game by one of the shop owners, he isn't allowed to live outside the Gray Quarter because he's a dark elf. How is that not racist?

I just found this topic. I have the same problem as you with playing the Imperial side in the civil war. It is hard to get past the whole "these guys are trying to lop off my dome" thing. I suggest trying an alternate start mod. That way you can skip the attempted loppage, and begin the game as your average Joe Imperialicus.

You can still kill the Captain regardless of which side you want to help. The initial decision of choosing who to follow will not impact who you ultimately join.

The captain dies in each and every one of my playthroughs.

Not only arrested, but sentenced to death without a trial or any chance to prove your innocence. But that's ok with you. That's a wonderful legal system right there as far as you're concerned.


Never visited the offices of Clan Shatter Shield I see. Suvaris has some "kind" words for the argonians

Altmer, bretons, imperials are all non-nords.

You mean like give them free housing, and to pay no taxes for taking up half his city? Gee I don't know.

Actually the steward has plenty of authority. Jorlief is in charge of the city guard even, or did you completely skip blood on the ice? Sure Ulfric can override his decision, but day to day issues are always handled by the steward. It's what they do.

Steward
def: a person who manages another's property or financial affairs; one who administers anything as the agent of another or others.


Because there's no corroborating evidence? Windhelm isn't exactly full of open housing just waiting to be bought. Hjerim just recently became available due to Tova's daughter's death. There's also contradiction by example(Dunmer PC can buy Hjerim), but you don't like examples because you're on a witchhunt.

Well he's directly responsible for the Argonians being kicked out of the city. Interestingly, Torygg may have had the same policy, since the executioner in Solitude says that "a lizard like Jaree-Ra" wouldn't have been let in the city if Torygg were still alive.

No one ever disses Solitude...

His house is in the Grey Quarter. Only the Nord farm worker actually lives at the farm. Anyway I am sure that the farms around Windhelm are city property, too. Generally it's that way with a feudal society. At any rate, Ulfric is in charge of all of Eastmarch. If he's so racist, I don't understand why any Dunmer are allowed to live there, or other Mer in the city itself.

They don't have to support him. That's the whole point of the Decree of Monument.

The idea that the situation in Windhelm boils purely down to xenophobic oppression, which Ulfric is perpetuating if not encouraging, is one interpretation. The game seems to lead you in that direction. However I think the game writing is actually more elegant, and poignant. What was meant to be a gesture of goodwill has, over time and under the cultural weaknesses of both Nords and Dunmer, come to seem like a negative thing. The mutual agreement of "you go your way, we go ours" has come to seem sinister. What I wonder is if Ambarys (who is the source of most of the negative press) is actually old enough to know the truth, but is choosing to be bitter toward the Nords for whatever reason. The Dunmer psyche is complex that way- proud and mercurial. Though someone also wrote http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dunmer_of_Skyrim saying that the Dunmer intend to take over Skyrim, so Ambarys could have darker motives.