Sneak Overpowered? Are you avoiding it? : V - Skyrim

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:05 pm

MMO mentality, nothing. You are trying to redefine the purpose of leveling, in an RPG. Leveling and/or combat are some of the most important parts of any game that tries to call itself an RPG. Story, environment, quests, they are all vehicles for character progression, and always have been. You level up and acquire better equipment through combat, for the purpose of leveling further and becoming better at combat. This can really even apply to any kind of game.

It is quite simple really. A Challenge is posed, then the player entertains himself figuring out how to beat said challenge. The formula works for nearly any game. Chess? Figure out how to checkmate king. Hide and seek? Figure out where the other players are. Tic tac toe? Figure out which box to mark an X.

The main point is if you slam your face against the keyboard and roll it around for a while, you win Skyrim.

The series has a very strong grip on open world and exploration aspects. But why not have both? Why not combine the open world exploration part with the structured, balanced mechanics and design that many other games utilize?

Ummmm... wow.

"Paradigm" for the win.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:54 am

Hehe... point taken.

I used to be a better reader... Then I.....

LOL! No harm, no foul

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:05 pm

Sneak levels up too easily, even without the thief stone. It needs modifying.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:39 am

the options should be there regardless. not because of their ineptitude, laziness, lack of creativity/time/money, etc.

Or you could not use the items that you feel are overpowered.

The options are there. The choices at this point are binary. Use options, and enjoy far better gameplay, or b ) do not use options, and whinge vociferously about it.

Now, I don't really give a rats [censored] which you choose, bar saying that if you don't choose to do anything to gain that which you desire, then I would dismiss any further posts of your on the matter as pointless complaints.

God helps those who helps themselves....

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:48 am

How exatcly does one avoid the ability to sneak?

You can't exactly hide from it or it woulf find you very quickly.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:15 pm

I just read all 8 pages of this, and honestly i see a whole bunch of people with blue balls for ck. I did see quite a few with an idea of what roleplaying is, and quite a few who probably thought diablo was an rpg.

I personally make it a point to become as powerful as possible; as a nord, with the same name, general features, and hair colour as the char i played from the last game. I read books in-game, referring to the player characters in previous games and know my namesake did those things. That's i how i play, that's my roleplaying. It's not the purist form of rp, but it works for me, because reading those books, the characters would have to be powerful in some way or another to accomplish the things they have.

Being incredibly efficient at doing that, doesn't mean the game is broken.

That being said, i play these games for the content. The entertainment value in these games has for me always been in finding that skeleton with the journal that leads to a grand quest, or finding a hidden artifact/unique item (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Fists_of_Radagulf, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Agnar%27s_Journal), that i can make my own quest to find out more info on.

Sadly, the content sphere has gotten smaller and smaller, for the sake of graphics and size. Guess i got blue balls for ck too.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:12 pm

How exatcly does one avoid the ability to sneak?

Um . . . by . . . not sneaking?

It's not necessary to sneak all over the place, or the entire time while in dungeons, even as a sneaky character. Took my thief/assassin over 100 hrs of play to get sneak up to 100 around lvl 38.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:55 am

But you see, the problem is that its far too easy, to even unintentionally make yourself far more powerful than intended, simply by playing intelligently. It's as though the game was designed to insult someone's intelligence in that regard. It's reasonably possible to have a nearly unstoppable character, as soon as around level 20 to 30, when there are 81 levels in the game.

I believe, that stealth, for example should indeed be reasonably powerful at maximum power, however....the large payoff in power must have equal difficulty and risk involved. Simply having 100 sneak, should not set every encounter into a foregone conclusion.

If this game capped your level at 20-30, it really wouldnt be as much of an issue, but you can get to level 81, but whats the point when you are already god like? Its one thing to progress to a high level and become proficient in a game after alot of leveling, but in Skyrim you can get to level 20 in a matter of hours, and be god like by the end of it.

The game was never designed for someone to play up to L81. The natural level cap is around 50. Once you start getting over L30-L35 you're going to be able to handle almost anything that the gameworld throws at you.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:43 pm

Self-control? I shouldn't have to fix this game myself. If you want to be invisible while in broad daylight then you obviously don't like sneaking because at that point you're just moving around without a though. That is not sneaking.

And if you had read my previous comment, you would know that I don't want sneak to be nerfed but reworked. If high sneak rewarded players with more tools rather than defeating its purpose, making players think before they act, then it would be perfect.

You obviously don't get that the point of the game is to play how you want. The game does not have to limit you. That's your job as the player.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:21 pm

MMO mentality, nothing. You are trying to redefine the purpose of leveling, in an RPG. Leveling and/or combat are some of the most important parts of any game that tries to call itself an RPG. Story, environment, quests, they are all vehicles for character progression, and always have been. You level up and acquire better equipment through combat, for the purpose of leveling further and becoming better at combat. This can really even apply to any kind of game.

It is quite simple really. A Challenge is posed, then the player entertains himself figuring out how to beat said challenge. The formula works for nearly any game. Chess? Figure out how to checkmate king. Hide and seek? Figure out where the other players are. Tic tac toe? Figure out which box to mark an X.

The main point is if you slam your face against the keyboard and roll it around for a while, you win Skyrim.

The series has a very strong grip on open world and exploration aspects. But why not have both? Why not combine the open world exploration part with the structured, balanced mechanics and design that many other games utilize?

For you maybe. I'd call that powergaming,not roleplaying.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:20 pm

Um . . . by . . . not sneaking?

It's not necessary to sneak all over the place, or the entire time while in dungeons, even as a sneaky character. Took my thief/assassin over 100 hrs of play to get sneak up to 100 around lvl 38.

Thank you. You have to activate Sneak. Seems pretty easy to not use it, how on earth are you guys getting it to 100 otherwise? I don't buy "by not trying you can get sneak to 100". Sneak doesn't just level... you have to use it, and you have to use it around npcs or mobs that can detect you. So again, what are you doing?

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:30 am

its OP until they see me then I'm fraked

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:57 pm

In my build I'm avoiding sneak based on feedback from friends who've played so far. They've told me the game gets too easy with sneak at level 100. We all know the stats, with the items and spells that make sneak even more powerful, and the youtube videos demonstrating this, but I wanted to know if you're playing your character with sneak at a low levels on purpose.

Also,
Do the higher game levels suppress levels for sneak, or are the enemies just harder?

Seems to me that active "role-playing" in Skyrim is needed. Meaning, you may need to set your own parameters in terms of character growth to get the most out of the experience.
Thoughts?

JS

This is an open RPG, sandbox, meaning YOU have to set your parameters and limitations to the char you want to play.

Answering your question. Overpowered? No it's not, in my opinion.

Right now I play a sneaky archer. The "sneaky" word means basically that has an ability that many others don't have, so it can hide and cast surprise attacks that other fighters can't. I don't expect a sneak skill to have little power, or else THIS char wouldn't be fun at all.

Less challenge on fights? Maybe. But my challenge here is that I can't receive as many hits with my light armor, as a heavy armored melee warrior. I also can't cast healing spells because I don't have magic, neither craft me uber weapons or armour because I don't have smithing nor enchanting.

I will, anyway, play a heavy armored warrior some day, with one handed sword and shield. But I won't use the sneaking skill, nor lockpicking, simply because it doesn't fit on the char I have planned.

You have to create the challenge, and I don't think there are any "overpowered" skills. Of course if you create a character with alchemy, lockpicking, smithing, enchanting, one handed, heavy armor, archery, sneaking, destruction, restoration.... then yes... it's "unbalanced".... The char... Not the game.

You mention "your build", but don't specify what class, or character type, you chose. If you're with a thief-like, rogue or assassin, then I would say: go for sneaking. If you want to play a mage or a warrior... then think about what profile you want for it and if it makes any sense for the char to "know" how to sneak. A non-light armour warrior shouldn't, in my opinion. If you choose not to, then simply don't use sneaking. Maybe for RP purposes use it ONLY at pitch black places, next to a wall, but ignoring the perk-tree, meaning you don't take advantages at all about critical bonus, etc...

Good luck and have fun.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:02 pm

the exact OPPOSITE is true and i think you have it completely BACKWARDS. the game should be created by the developers to be very hard at the top difficulty and then give us the option to make it easier.

playing ... aggressively

The fact of the matter is that not every game is designed for that style of play - the whole "designed to be Very Hard" and to be "played aggressively". Not every game is made to be a barometer of how awesome and macho you are. That's the nice thing - it would svck if all games were Ninja Gaiden Black or Dark Souls. I certainly wouldn't be playing games anymore....

(And based on the previous Bethesda games I've played, they've never made games in that style. Or if they did, it certainly hasn't been for a long, long time. Why people would buy a Beth game and expect something that'll kick their ass, when there's over a decade of people whining about their games being easy, is beyond me.)

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:18 am

This is an open RPG, sandbox, meaning YOU have to set your parameters and limitations to the char you want to play.

Answering your question. Overpowered? No it's not, in my opinion.

Right now I play a sneaky archer. The "sneaky" word means basically that has an ability that many others don't have, so it can hide and cast surprise attacks that other fighters can't. I don't expect a sneak skill to have little power, or else THIS char wouldn't be fun at all.

Less challenge on fights? Maybe. But my challenge here is that I can't receive as many hits with my light armor, as a heavy armored melee warrior. I also can't cast healing spells because I don't have magic, neither craft me uber weapons or armour because I don't have smithing nor enchanting.

I will, anyway, play a heavy armored warrior some day, with one handed sword and shield. But I won't use the sneaking skill, nor lockpicking, simply because it doesn't fit on the char I have planned.

You have to create the challenge, and I don't think there are any "overpowered" skills. Of course if you create a character with alchemy, lockpicking, smithing, enchanting, one handed, heavy armor, archery, sneaking, destruction, restoration.... then yes... it's "unbalanced".... The char... Not the game.

You mention "your build", but don't specify what class, or character type, you chose. If you're with a thief-like, rogue or assassin, then I would say: go for sneaking. If you want to play a mage or a warrior... then think about what profile you want for it and if it makes any sense for the char to "know" how to sneak. A non-light armour warrior shouldn't, in my opinion. If you choose not to, then simply don't use sneaking. Maybe for RP purposes use it ONLY at pitch black places, next to a wall, but ignoring the perk-tree, meaning you don't take advantages at all about critical bonus, etc...

Good luck and have fun.

I'm simply posing the question if self restraint in perk level progression is needed for balanced play in this game. The consensus on this thread seems to be yes. The conflict is if this is a good thing or not.

I have an idea! How about everyone reading this give examples of other games, besides bethesda's, that work best when the player engages in this kind of self restraint? Particularly RPGs of course.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:54 am

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