No Sense of Accomplishment : V - Skyrim

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:58 pm

the game DOES force us to gimp to make it hard. it should ABSOLUTELY be the other way around.

This.

Imagine if every game came with godmode turned on. The idiots in this forum would be arguing "well you can use a cheat code to turn godmode off..."

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:55 am

Arg! Another "Skyrim don't make me feel like the sixiest man alive" thread! Run away!

I think it's more Skyrim makes me feel like the sixiest man alive for nothing

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:45 pm

You would invest in smithing because in a well designed game smithing would be necessary in order to be good enough to beat the long and challenging quest lines that got you the best gear. Smithing would be a tool on the path, not the 30 minute be all end all of the game.

What blasphemy and stupidity is this? That would be a horribly designed game because it would remove the choice of character development from you. Every single skill in the game is optional - that's the game's design theory. Why would they want to make the crafting skills different?

scow2-

i am with carrot on this point: you say he's complaining about the balance and deliberately tries to acquire the best stuff in the game, right?

the answer is an obvious one: OF COURSE!

your argument is telling him to go out of his way to NOT get the best stuff. that's the exact same argument he is making except he is correct because of this fact: it's up to the developers to create a game that is balanced AND give us the option to play it unbalanced. not the other way around.

at the highest difficulty level that the developers set the game should be, um, the most difficult all the way through. and then they give us the option to REDUCE the difficulty. not the other way around.

that's why all these arguments people try and use by saying beth doesn't force us to do anything and that they give us the option to gimp have a FAILING argument.
the game DOES force us to gimp to make it hard. it should ABSOLUTELY be the other way around.

I'm not saying that he's trying to acquire the best stuff in the game. I'm saying that he's going out of his way to do it, and being surprised when his efforts actually pay off.

At level 30, you're significantly on the "Endgame Run", and should have some of the best stuff available. This is when your character's definition is strongest.

You mean the heavy armor chest piece with a bonus to sneaking on it?

You'd think the makers of the game would know that sneak characters are supposed to wear light armor...

Into the "cool items I'll never use" chest in my house it goes.

The Ebony Mail is an artifact of Boethia, and perfectly exemplifies him/her as the "Deceitful Warrior". (S)he's the Anticipation of Almalexia, WARRIOR-goddess of the Tribunal. So it makes perfect sense to be a stealthy, heavy-armored warrior. Any worshipper of boethia would recognize that.

Lol yeah and the fact that the quest to get the armor involved me shooting an arrow through a window at a "champion" sitting down in his chair killing him instantly, or sacrificing a poor helpless NPC who can't fight back? Or "be the last one standing" when the enemies don't even see me and basically fight amongst themselves as I pick them off one by one.

Congratualtions - you learn the ways of Boethia quite well

To each his own, but as far as itemization goes, I ran out of upgrades at 30. Archery, Sneaking, Smithing were all at 100 before then. Enchanting hit 100 in my 30s and Alchemy hit 100 by 40. Really, past level 25, Perks started to just be overkill. Deliberately going out of my way to acquire the best gear? Really? Taking an item out of a display case I just happen to come into contact with at the STARTING TOWNS is going out of my way? Besides, THAT IS THE FREAKING POINT OF THE GAME IS PROGRESS. How do I afford the materials? Lol maybe the fact that I can sell back everything I craft for a profit in many cases and that everything I kill drops a ton of loot I can sell? Materials are not expensive and Leather is abundant just by killing animals around the starting town. The problem is the game balance. I am not going out of my way to do this. There is a big difference between being powerful, and trivializing content. The game is trivialized not due to exploiting or abusing, but that the game is not scaled properly. It scales off of level, which even that does not work well. Also - under no circumstances what I posted is exploiting or abusing by themselves or coupled together. Sorry, it just isn't. Those are STANDARD features. They are imbalanced. I should be able to modify the difficulty to scale properly, not choose either - progress and be come a god and ruin the game, or not progress. The option for players wanting to be overpowered should be there though. LOL what hoops man? I was just going from town to town and crafted along the way. Most of my tier skipping came from just finding items. Taking Perks, yeah woooo buddy that is jumping through hoops there! Buying materials at a vendor I am already at or using a Skill Trainer - wow really going out of my wayyyy. Giving Skyrim a free pass because it may "work better" than Morrowind, is not cool. They could have rectified this issue entirely, but did not.

You're focusing exclusively on Smithing, which is what gives you the best stuff in the game. Have you tried training any other skills?

There's more to the game than just loot, as well.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:54 am

This.

Imagine if every game came with godmode turned on. The idiots in this forum would be arguing "well you can use a cheat code to turn godmode off..."

Exactly. I use the console...to not cheat? What the hell kind of bizarro world is this!

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:17 am

So far, all I'm seeing in this thread is people whining that the game's working the way it's supposed to.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:09 am

Personally, I liked the progression of loot. Gradually improving my gear over time: Fur & Hide, to Leather, to Scale, to Elven, to Glass. Finding better enchanted pieces to improve my situation. Completing a Daedric quest and getting the artifact sword Dawnbreaker (which I could never craft). Finally getting my Smithing high enough (sometime in the 30's?) to improve my looted magic items. Finding a rare Daedric 1-h sword in a dragon's horde in the high 40's. (Daedric and dragon seems pretty rare. Only found about six pieces total, between daedric armor & weapons, and dragonscale/plate.)

Great stuff.

So you avoided most of the quests then, eh? I haven't finished the Companions quests yet, but if you do sneak playstyle you join the Dark Brotherhood or Thieves Guild at level 5 ish and are given a full set of gear that you can only improve by finishing the quests for those guilds or by using double enchanted smithing. So you use the money you get from the quests in those guilds to level blacksmithing and then... well... the game is over, you got the best loot, no reason to play anymore.

Even more disappointing than crafting is the shouts. There is a cool detect life one... with a painfully short duration and that exposes you from stealth when you use it. Oblivion was much better designed.

My first character couldn't do double enchantments until I was in the high 50's. And that was only after I'd done the MQ, the Civil War, and a bunch of other stuff, and decided to see if enchanting was more interesting at high levels. (Since it was useless before that - I could never enchant anything that was better than the loot I found.)

Smithing is useless at low levels because it is poorly designed. At low levels you can powerlevel it to sidestep the entire 400 hours of the game in a single play session.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:32 pm

"missing something games of old had"

intelligent application

masses like plug n play - hence xbox sales etc
games have become about "scoring points or doing what you want with no real consequence"

my guess is that old open world many people probably got upset because their idiotic choices led to them being shunned in-game so they got rid of it... ha that is my bias guess

unbias though, I think there is a link between that point and the fact there are less independant developers and more leviathan companies... money is taking a stronger hold... game quality is getting better, but content is getting worse or at least more obvious, simple and linear

Better than they used to be about patching though! I remember the days when you buy a game for pc or w/e... and it if it had lots of bugs... you actually had to write a letter of request/ complaint to the makers in the hope that they would send you a floppy disk with the patch fix's on it...

thank god we have instant download... but I agree ultimately

less deadline, free up creativity

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:54 pm

So you avoided most of the quests then, eh? I haven't finished the Companions quests yet, but if you do sneak playstyle you join the Dark Brotherhood or Thieves Guild at level 5 ish and are given a full set of gear that you can only improve by finishing the quests for those guilds or by using double enchanted smithing. So you use the money you get from the quests in those guilds to level blacksmithing and then... well... the game is over, you got the best loot, no reason to play anymore.

Even more disappointing than crafting is the shouts. There is a cool detect life one... with a painfully short duration and that exposes you from stealth when you use it. Oblivion was much better designed.

Smithing is useless at low levels because it is poorly designed. At low levels you can powerlevel it to sidestep the entire 400 hours of the game in a single play session.

Loot is not the Core of Skyrim, or any other TES game. It's the world to explore. Personally, if you're having a problem with having the "best" gear in the game, you need to find another game.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:42 pm

The Ebony Mail is an artifact of Boethia, and perfectly exemplifies him/her as the "Deceitful Warrior". (S)he's the Anticipation of Almalexia, WARRIOR-goddess of the Tribunal. So it makes perfect sense to be a stealthy, heavy-armored warrior. Any worshipper of boethia would recognize that.

Stealthy and Warrior are opposite terms. Warriors do not hide. Warriors do not think. Warriors charge headlong into their enemy and beat them senseless with whatever blunt object may be available.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:54 am

So far, all I'm seeing in this thread is people whining that the game's working the way it's supposed to.

what i've seen is people responding to contradictory point of views, say, yours with carrots, and you now resorting to calling this thread a whining one.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:57 am

Loot is not the Core of Skyrim, or any other TES game. It's the world to explore. Personally, if you're having a problem with having the "best" gear in the game, you need to find another game.

If it is the world to explore then there is no need for smithing to provide any gear, as gear is not necessary for exploring.

Aw, you lost.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:58 am

You're focusing exclusively on Smithing, which is what gives you the best stuff in the game. Have you tried training any other skills?

There's more to the game than just loot, as well.

Yes, I did not actively "power level" Smithing. The only skills I needed were Archery, Sneaking, Smithing, Enchanting, and Alchemy. My build involves Light Armor up until it does not slow me down, but I don't ever get touched so have no use really for Armor, I could just as easily wear clothing since it is just a vehicle to increase my Archery, Sneak, and Magic Resist anyways. Just by playing the game, you will naturally level up Lockpicking and Speech. I don't care at all about Magicka, especially on this character, as it is cumbersome to swap from a Bow to Magic, especially for inferior performance results and that in order to benefit from I need to Perk out and invest in. Starting off, the only skills I focused on were Archery, Sneaking, and Smithing. I didn't even start to level my Enchanting until I found Soul Trap item and Spell Book. I did not go "out of my way" to level Archery or Sneaking as just by playing the game as my character those go up. Naturally, Smithing is an ACTIVE skill. Why would I take Smithing? Maybe because items have static values and if I don't take Smithing, I will not ever be able to progress and scale! That isn't my fault, that's Bethesda's fault for deciding that Smithing would function this way.

By level 30, Archery, Sneaking, and Smithing were all at 100. My Archery Perks were done and so were my Smithing Perks. Sneaking I still needed Shadow Warrior. You might think that is "fast" but it isn't. Look at a true skill calculator, had I power leveled I could have capped a skill at LEVEL 8! I could have had all 3 of those done at level 25. My Archery hit 100 at 25 and Smithing at 26. Sneaking (since I had Warrior Stone active) did not hit 100 until 30 since I switched Stones to Thief.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:45 am

I feel as if I accomplish something each time I play, whether it's raising a skill, exploring a new area, making potions, selling items, finding new gear, etc.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:26 pm

Loot is not the Core of Skyrim, or any other TES game. It's the world to explore. Personally, if you're having a problem with having the "best" gear in the game, you need to find another game.

Itemization and character development and progression facilitates players to explore and progress the storyline. That is how the game works and that is how games in general work. What you suggest, would mean that if this game had no character development or progression it would be still be fun in and of itself as the "core of the game is to explore" and progress the story correct? Now, I am not really a betting man bad had Skyrim done this I am fairly sure it would have bombed - dismally. My complaint is two-fold.

1.) Itemization and Character Progression is not as dynamic of a system as the environment and rest of Skyrim. It could scale infinitely in a manner quite easily. Further, found loot and Unique items are not as special and there are no true sinks in the game (meaningful ones) to spend gold on.
2.) Difficulty scaling is out of whack. The game needs more options to truly make the game more challenging and scale better.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:55 pm

17.) Save / load makes everything not feel dangerous. Almost no risk
18.) Dying is a VERY rare occurance, you basically need to be AFK to die

These are the only ones I disagree with, but it may have to do with my playstyle.

While yes, you can pause and drink potions to heal up, that doesn't matter if you fail to survive the initial hit.

Playing as a stealth/assassin, I either 1hit every npc in the game or the npcs 1hit me. In real life I suppose that is how an assassin would work, but something is missing from the gameplay element. It is similar to the issues that Rogues have in World of Warcraft. The general playstyle is hard to do properly. They should have given assassins a way to stun or blind an enemy for a second or two in order to escape. I suppose that is what the top stealth perk is for, but it doesn't work very well most the time.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:35 pm

Some people should power level their self discipline before they even turn on the game.

Cover your dining room table with cupcakes and pormography.

Ignore cupcakes and pormography.

Repeat.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:34 am

Boethia disagrees, and is one of the most powerful Daedric Princes because of it.

Have fun with your LARP.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:36 am

What do you mean gradually upgrading and improving your gear? Within literally the first hour of playing I went from a Long Bow, first mob I killed outside the Guardian Stones gives me a Hunting bow, I walk into Riften and grab an Orcish bow out of a display case, am sent to White Run and grab an Elven Bow. I spend the next hour with an Elven Bow (I only got to shoot the Orcish, Long Bow, and Hunting Bow maybe 3 times each) then I am put into jail for some quest, break out Forsworn - proceed to kill Forsworn who attack me down the road, bam upgraded to Forsworn Bow. Walked a bit down the road, FTed to Riften to complete a quest, walked outside down a path encountered Ebony Ore just freaking sitting on a ledge and a whole mine full of it and then crafted an Ebony Bow.

That was maybe 3 hours of playing, and I had the second best bow in the game. Oh wait, actually THE BEST bow, because I had enough Ebony and a Daedra Heart that I BOUGHT at an Alchemist to just immediately skip Ebony all the way to Daedric - the best Bow you can have. 3 hours, no possible upgrade for me. That is not a steady progression path. I didn't even try to get loot or look at wikis. Had I of done this, I could have gotten the best bow immediately. Sad.

This should be stickied to the front page.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:34 am

I don't get any sort of accomplishment feeling coming from loot of bandits. Personally, I like that the bandits commonly have scrub weapons. I find accomplishment in quest lines, collecting items, the console "trophies", housing, skill sets etc. My main character is lvl 35 and about to get my first skill to 100. That is exciting. Exploring a Region until there is nothing left to discover? That will be an accomplishment. Major battles that take two or three attempts to complete? That is rewarding. Finding new ways to exploit the interactions between spells, shouts, powers and other gear? That is a rewarding experience for me.

For instance: This morning, It dawned on me I could use the become ethereal shout to buy time in order to read a powerful scroll, and I then one the battle that until then I had failed three times on....Accomplishment!

The only times I've failed on a battle is when I am sneaking up behind someone and they detect me even though I'm at sneak 100 with +100% from gear (aka glitch, bug). Reload, sneak up again, one shot them.

Also frustrating is when I have pickpocket 100, over 100% bonus from gear, am behind them, in stealth, while they are sleeping.... and they catch me taking 1 single lockpick from them.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:48 am

I've not had this be the case at all... I still have quite a ways to go. I've accomplished much, but am only level 35. It took me quite a long time to get my smithing to 70 so I could equip myself with glass armor

The fact that you are bad at the game doesn't mean that what he said isn't true.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:56 pm

So you use the money you get from the quests in those guilds to level blacksmithing and then... well... the game is over, you got the best loot, no reason to play anymore.

Are you saying that the game is over because having the best loot defeats the challenge, or are you saying that the game is over because you play for the sake of acquiring better and better loot, but there is no better loot left to find?

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:27 am

Once you have attained 100 and replace your gear and weapons, what little challenge there was disappears . I think that if you are able to obtain a godlike character by leveling one skill something is unbalanced .
The attaining of such power should have involved quest and very rare items to be achieved , not standing at a crafting table .

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:54 am

Isn't the best loot the most useful loot? If the game is over once you get an item, then it is a useless item. How is it the best?

because BETHESDA doesn't know how to make a game difficult at the highest levels on the hardest difficulty level.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:39 am

It’s totally different for me. My sense of accomplishment comes from the journey, not the destination. In fact, ALL of the quests from Fallout 3, New Vegas and Oblivion are a little anti-climatic in my opinion. The fun lies for me in the process, not the result. It’s all about the adventure. As for armor and weapons, I’ve found with Skyrim, my characters get a LOT of pleasure and satisfaction from making their own gear. My level 47 (or is it 48 now I forget?) character is still using the first set of leather armor he made in Riverwood. It’s improved to Exquisite or maybe Flawless and it’s enchanted with a Light Armor buff, but it’s still the first one he made. That feel’s awesome to him and by extension me! Until he found his first Ebony bow and sword, he was using the first Forsworn Bow he got like at level 3, and the Skysteel Sword he got from the Companions. He still feels nostalgic for those weapons and will still take them out sometimes “for old times’ sake”, though, lol. But it’s hard to beat an enchanted Ebony Bow, Ebony Arrows and Sword, lol. (He is practical after all.)

The thing I REALLY miss in Skyrim are the truly unique weapons and armor. Sure, there are a few to be collected, but not near as many as Oblivion had. One of my favorite characters was an adventurer and weapon/artifact collector, and he had nearly every unique item in the game when he retired. His display room (that I built for him in Glenvar Castle) was AWESOME! I don’t see being able to do the same thing in Skyrim unless the modding community gives the unique weapons a complete overhaul.

Here’s the display room: http://ypdesign.com/tes/glenvar/display.htm

Now THAT was a sense of accomplishment when it was finished!

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:01 am

i am with carrot on this point: you say he's complaining about the balance and deliberately tries to acquire the best stuff in the game, right?

the answer is an obvious one: OF COURSE!

your argument is telling him to go out of his way to NOT get the best stuff.

Actually, that's exactly how I play. If, for example, I know that you can do some trick in the first couple hours of a JRPG to get the http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DiscOneNuke weapon that'll trivialize the next 40 hours of play? I don't do it. Why would I want to deliberately set out to ruin my game? To take away my own fun? Seriously, that makes no sense.

So you avoided most of the quests then, eh? I haven't finished the Companions quests yet, but if you do sneak playstyle you join the Dark Brotherhood or Thieves Guild at level 5 ish and are given a full set of gear that you can only improve by finishing the quests for those guilds or by using double enchanted smithing. So you use the money you get from the quests in those guilds to level blacksmithing and then... well... the game is over, you got the best loot, no reason to play anymore.

Ok, for one, I didn't reach Whiterun until at least level 10, so I didn't get to the Companions, let alone the other guilds. For two, I didn't use the carriages to get to other towns.... I walked to them (and yes, I'm one of the "I love Fast Travel! It's great!" people. Doesn't mean I don't like to take my time exploring). Didn't hit Riften until the 20's or 30's I think, even if I wanted to do the Thieves.

For two, no... I didn't do the DB or the Thieves' Guild on that character. I wasn't playing a thief (I was playing a semi-honorable warrior/merc. Yeah, I did the Companions), and I never do the DB (didn't in Oblivion either) - I'm not a fan of "evil" questlines. I'm skipping about half of the Daedric quests in this game, too.

But let's go back to this:

So you use the money you get from the quests in those guilds to level blacksmithing and then... well... the game is over, you got the best loot, no reason to play anymore.

Ok, let's consider this. "And then the game is over, no reason to play anymore."

WHY THE !#($ WOULD YOU PURPOSELY DO THIS?

Seriously, WTF? You buy a game to play and enjoy it.... and then you DELIBERATELY DO THINGS TO RUIN THAT? Do you not see how utterly completely insane that statement is? I can't comprehend why someone would purposely #$*@ up their own life and game that way.

At low levels you can powerlevel it to sidestep the entire 400 hours of the game in a single play session.

Again, WHY THE @#(& would you want to "sidestep" the game you bought to play? I mean, do you buy books and movies, and then just flip to the last 5 minutes of them? I mean, after all - there's nothing stopping you. And that's the goal, to "finish" them, right? :wallbash: