Sheogorath plot gap? [Oblivion and Skyrim Spoiler]

Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:02 am

I do realise that Mehrunes Dagon's realm of oblivion and Sheogoraths realm are two different places that wasnt even the argument, and to say the daedra arnt exacly evil is like saying the aedra arnt exactly good, in fact the daedra are in lore called "Padomayic", Padomay aka Sithis is the god of death,chaos,destruction ect, therefore the daedra are evil just in their own way.
Lets see.

Azura wanted me to cleans her star of a necromancer.
Peryite wanted me to kill one of his followers who betrayed him.
Meridia wanted me to clear her shrine of shades and restore her light.
Sheogorath wanted me to "fix" someones mind. Although he was playing with you in the process.
Nocturnal wanted me to return her artifact after someone stole it.

Really, I cant see any evil intent in their tasks.

On the flip side, I have seen nothing to suppose the Aedra are "good". If anything, they are spiteful that their actions are influenced by mortals.
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Zualett
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:57 am

Presumably, although after 200 years the essence of Sheogorath has probably corrupted and warped him so much that he has become Sheogorath in every way (including appearance and mannersims) except for a few old memories from a time as the coc.
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Marilú
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:50 am

It's not canon lore because it doesn't say that the CoC became Sheogorath anywhere in the game.

It does seem to be the most plausible outcome, though.
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Ben sutton
 
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Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:57 pm

So now you are dictating how someone RPs?Just because somone is a killer doesnt mean they wont try and save the world from complete destruction.

After the tsunami in Japan, the Yakuza donated supplies to help. And a lot of it.


Bad =/= evil. By your definition of Evil, you may seem them as such. I don't. In fact, most of the daedric quests in Skyrim I saw as good. Including Sheogorath's.
No I am not dictating how someone should RP and your comparing apples to oranges with the Dark Brotherhood and the Yakuza, the DB could care less since they belive they are the childeren of Sithis the Patriarch of all the daedric princes.

Sheogorath's quest in Skyrim isnt good or evil, but then you have to remember Sheo has two sides to him, Manic and demented, when you do his quest in Skyrim he's in more of a manic state which is basicly his good side, but when he's in his demented state he's evil.
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sally R
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:01 am

huh? You are confusing some lore my friend and doing it in a really big way. Daedric Princes existed alongside Jigy and took care of him when he was in his prime, now he is some worthless wanderer that has no realm or army. Winning the Bloodmoon contest would NOT cure/kill all werewolves, I don’t know where you got that from.
Yes I do know the other daedric prince's cursed Jyggalag into Sheogorath because they feared him and his power, but even before Jyggalag was cursed by the other daedric prince's, he wanted nothing to do with Nirn and it's inhabitant's so he had no cults to make him powerful, he just naturaly was and thats what the other daedric princes feared, and if you remember, Jyggalag back before he was cursed ruled over other parts of oblivion as well so Im sure he would have an army of his knights of order.

When I played Bloodmoon and beat it my PC was cured of Lycanthropy and I couldn't find any werewolves after that. I've only played it thru twice and this was a few years ago, so I figured that lycans were cured after you beat bloodmoon.
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Sharra Llenos
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:56 am

dude..just stop..what's the point of arguing facts? the coc became sheogorath, that's canon lore. end of story. just like the nerevarine DID defeat dagoth ur, and the dragonborn DID defeat alduin. that's the lore, deal with it.

As I have explained profusely above, no it is not.
Since I can actually back my point of view up with logic, reasoning and a comparison with how other lore works in the TES universe and you cannot or will not back your point up, I shall consider my opinion the more valid one.
Once more: No-one is saying Shivering did not happen, so dont try that bunk.
What is being said is that there is no proof that the CoC became Sheogorath and there is not.
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Julia Schwalbe
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:37 am

Lets see. Azura wanted me to cleans her star of a necromancer. Peryite wanted me to kill one of his followers who betrayed him. Meridia wanted me to clear her shrine of shades and restore her light. Sheogorath wanted me to "fix" someones mind. Although he was playing with you in the process. Nocturnal wanted me to return her artifact after someone stole it. Really, I cant see any evil intent in their tasks. On the flip side, I have seen nothing to suppose the Aedra are "good". If anything, they are spiteful that their actions are influenced by mortals.
All the daedric princes you mentioned are technicly neutral, sometimes thier good, sometimes thier bad, which to me it still makes them evil, just because thier not as evil as some of the other daedric princes, doesnt make them not evil, for example if my PC in Skyrim killed innocent ppl, then turned around and helped out some ppl knowing theres a reward involved, does this make him good or evil? the answer is ovious. Azura may seem like a good daedra, but she really isnt she cursed an entire race of elves called the chimer, who looked pretty much like the high elves into the dunmer you see now, all because the Tribunal acended to godhood and stopped worshiping Azura, and Peryite this ones pretty easy, his quest involves killing one of his followers who betrayed him thats vengance and technicly evil, and Meridia is sort of vain and by restoring her light ur making her feel glorified, I already talked about Sheogorath so I will just skip him to Nocturnal, Nocturnal whom is the chosen daedric prince of the thieves guild inspires thievery which isnt very good in most cases.
How are the Aedra spiteful? because they bestow power to the dragonborn or the CoC instead of dealing with the problem themselves? the Aedra are connected to mundus but thier not OF mundus so they must act thru thier champions instead.
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Nick Pryce
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:44 am

As I have explained profusely above, no it is not.
Since I can actually back my point of view up with logic, reasoning and a comparison with how other lore works in the TES universe and you cannot or will not back your point up, I shall consider my opinion the more valid one.
Once more: No-one is saying Shivering did not happen, so dont try that bunk.
What is being said is that there is no proof that the CoC became Sheogorath and there is not.

No you cant back it up with logic. Beth never released an alternative start mod, you always had to be that prisoner that got the amulet of kings, there was no official way around that. You can say something silly like oh but I did the Oblivion MQ halfway but someone can then say something silly like they never moved from their jail cell thus Dagon rules the world.
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Kelvin Diaz
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:31 am

No you cant back it up with logic. Beth never released an alternative start mod, you always had to be that prisoner that got the amulet of kings, there was no official way around that. You can say something silly like oh but I did the Oblivion MQ halfway but someone can then say something silly like they never moved from their jail cell thus Dagon rules the world.

You keep bringing that up, but I dont see how its a sensible argument.
I dont understand why one would need an alternative starting mod for someone to have gone through that portal and mantle Sheogorath.
Fact of the matter is that the background of the adventurer in any TES game is never defined.
There are rumours the Nerevarine went to Akavir, but no proof.
There is also no proof the CoC mantled Sheogorath.
There never will be proof, TES lore simply does not work that way.

Its fine to believe the CoC became the madgod. it is not fine to insist it is canon fact when it is most empathetically not so, due to lack of proof.
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Emily Rose
 
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Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:05 pm

Yes I do know the other daedric prince's cursed Jyggalag into Sheogorath because they feared him and his power, but even before Jyggalag was cursed by the other daedric prince's, he wanted nothing to do with Nirn and it's inhabitant's so he had no cults to make him powerful, he just naturaly was and thats what the other daedric princes feared, and if you remember, Jyggalag back before he was cursed ruled over other parts of oblivion as well so Im sure he would have an army of his knights of order.

When I played Bloodmoon and beat it my PC was cured of Lycanthropy and I couldn't find any werewolves after that. I've only played it thru twice and this was a few years ago, so I figured that lycans were cured after you beat bloodmoon.

Hercine brought werewolves to the island for the contest, when the contest was over they left. I am pretty sure I got to keep my werewolf afterwords so maybe it depends on whether you play as the hunter or the hunted? Or maybe I was just using mods.

Jygalag has no realm anymore, and having a realm is very important for a Daedric Prince. In fact not having a realm for a Daedric Prince is unprecedented as far as I know. So Jygalag could literally be struggling to survive.
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Nice one
 
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Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:45 pm

You keep bringing that up, but I dont see how its a sensible argument.
I dont understand why one would need an alternative starting mod for someone to have gone through that portal and mantle Sheogorath.
Fact of the matter is that the background of the adventurer in any TES game is never defined.
There are rumours the Nerevarine went to Akavir, but no proof.
There is also no proof the CoC mantled Sheogorath.
There never will be proof, TES lore simply does not work that way.



Its fine to believe the CoC became the madgod. it is not fine to insist it is canon fact when it is most empathetically not so, due to lack of proof.

What kind of proof do you want? It is in the game. You have to be the guy that gets the amulet of kings b4 you travel to Shivering Isles. If you don’t do any of the oblivion MQ than Dagon should be ruling the world. Clearly Dagon isn’t so COC is Sheo.
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Trevor Bostwick
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:25 am

What kind of proof do you want? It is in the game. You have to be the guy that gets the amulet of kings b4 you travel to Shivering Isles. If you don’t do any of the oblivion MQ than Dagon should be ruling the world. Clearly Dagon isn’t so COC is Sheo.

But.. that doesnt make sense.
How many times must I explain that the central theorem here is that it is not certain it was the CoC who mantled the madgod.
Do you get that someone else may have gone through that portal?
That portal was an open invitation, anyone was allowed through.
Why must you take a stance that implies the player is the only person in the world?

It just does not make any sense.

Look its fine not to really understand or care about TES lore and its intricacies and habits.
It is however not fine to insist something is canon fact when there is no proof and you dont take the time or care to get to know enough to actually back your argument up with logical conjecture instead of flat-out statements of 'fact'.
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Rudi Carter
 
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Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:02 pm

try use the Dark Brotherhood ghost you get from a quest here in Skyrim, and then enter Sherogath quest line with him alive all the time
Maybe they will say "hey, its been a while"
or even.. he get ressed by him? :smile:

He rememberes Shadowmare at least, why not Sherograth? if this is the CoC
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Marcia Renton
 
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Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:27 pm

try use the Dark Brotherhood ghost you get from a quest here in Skyrim, and then enter Sherogath quest line with him alive all the time
Maybe they will say "hey, its been a while"
or even.. he get ressed by him? :smile:

He rememberes Shadowmare at least, why not Sherograth? if this is the CoC

On my current playthrough I havent done the madgod's quest yet.
Ill try that.
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Tarka
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:54 am

It is quite clearly hinted that Sheogorath is the Champion of Cyodiil. I suggest you look it up at the UESP
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Calum Campbell
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:01 am

It is quite clearly hinted that Sheogorath is the Champion of Cyodiil. I suggest you look it up at the UESP

The UESP is not good when it comes to lore.
Try the Imperial Library instead.
If you look at the relevant talk page on the UESP you will see that I have raised questions regarding their claims as to the canonicity of the CoC being Sheogorath there.

Once again, proof is the central issue here, and there is no proof.
Dont talk to me about a fansite that is second-rate when it comes to lore, provide actual, real, proof.
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RAww DInsaww
 
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Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:43 pm

Well, the CoC would only have become Sheogorath if the player bought and played the Shivering Isles expansion.

So Skyrim leaves it all rather vague. Sheogorath might be the CoC or he might not be. Its really up to the Skyrim player to interpret it how they wish.
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Del Arte
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:13 am

I still believe the Champion of Cyrodiil is Sheogorath mainly because he is the only Hero then went into the SI. I don't think a normal-every-day-adventure can defeat Jyggalag.
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Steve Bates
 
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Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:56 pm

Hercine brought werewolves to the island for the contest, when the contest was over they left. I am pretty sure I got to keep my werewolf afterwords so maybe it depends on whether you play as the hunter or the hunted? Or maybe I was just using mods.

Jygalag has no realm anymore, and having a realm is very important for a Daedric Prince. In fact not having a realm for a Daedric Prince is unprecedented as far as I know. So Jygalag could literally be struggling to survive.
Ahh I see I just figured that after the bloodmoon all the lycans were cured, probably due to old lore non relaltive to TES tales of bloodmoon curing lycans.

With Jyggalag its all up in the air, and I do realize its very important for a daedric prince to have a realm, for without a realm their weak and powerless, but that was part of my point, maby he would have reclaimed old territory he once owned, it seems like the smart thing to do, otherwise he would wither and die.
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alyssa ALYSSA
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:33 am

yes the hero of Kavatch (and champion of cyrodill) whatever you call them
eventully becomes sheogorath
I was a little dissapointed there werent enough refrences to oblivion with him,he mentions the oblivion crisis and how he was there and seeing martin turn into akatosh to fight dagon
they couldnt have done more of a self aware type of thing "Well looks like I finally got here,oh dont remember me do you? five years can do that"
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Rhysa Hughes
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:03 am

The Hero of Kvatch does not become Sheogorath. Oblivion's main quest line, and only its main quest line, is the story of the Hero of Kvatch and the Champion of Cyrodiil.
Yes the CoC is Sheogorath. There is no evidence that is against it and there is a clear admittance from the Madgod itself that he was there with Martin throughout the Oblivion Crisis
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Guinevere Wood
 
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Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:14 pm

It's not canon lore because it doesn't say that the CoC became Sheogorath anywhere in the game.

It does seem to be the most plausible outcome, though.

In Oblivion, go to the character menu where it says which factions you are a part of.
If you completed the SI, then you will be known as Madgod. Madgod = Sheogorath
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Scott
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:00 am

Well, the CoC would only have become Sheogorath if the player bought and played the Shivering Isles expansion.

So Skyrim leaves it all rather vague. Sheogorath might be the CoC or he might not be. Its really up to the Skyrim player to interpret it how they wish.
That is like saying that if you didn't play through the MQ then the future of Tamriel is vague. It is canon, just as Dagon's defeat is.
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Emzy Baby!
 
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Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:40 pm

Yes the CoC is Sheogorath. There is no evidence that is against it and there is a clear admittance from the Madgod itself that he was there with Martin throughout the Oblivion Crisis

I don't think so. We are talking about the player character and the only thing in common from player to player should be Oblivion's MQ. The rest varies from player to player, just as the CoC six and race depends on the player.

What happened in the expansion or guild quests were optional, and so might or might not have happened to the CoC.
So the Champion might have become Sheogorath (that is for each Oblivion player to answer for themselves, many might never have bought the expansion, so it just didn't happen).
Just as the Champion might have become the Gray Fox.
Or the Champion might have become the Archmage of the Mages of the Guild.
And so on.

You can't say what became of someone else's character. Because the CoC is not like an NPC with a fixed history.
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Jani Eayon
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:53 am

I don't think so. We are talking about the player character and the only thing in common from player to player should be Oblivion's MQ. The rest varies from player to player, just as the CoC six and race depends on the player.

What happened in the expansion or guild quests were optional, and so might or might not have happened to the CoC.
So the Champion might have become Sheogorath (that is for each Oblivion player to answer for themselves, many might never have bought the expansion, so it just didn't happen).
Just as the Champion might have become the Gray Fox.
Or the Champion might have become the Archmage of the Mages of the Guild.
And so on.

You can't say what became of someone else's character. Because the CoC is not like an NPC with a fixed history.
Sheogorath said it himself (?) that he was there throughout the whole thing. He even mentions the Grey Fox, which seems to me that regardless of if you personally did all of the things possible, those things were all done by the same person, and only the CoC was in each of those situations
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Dustin Brown
 
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