The Werewolves you see in Bloodmoon are Hircine's personal hunters. They are WAY much more powerful than the common Werewolf you see in Daggerfall and Skyrim. Those Werewolves are always in their wolf form and left the island with Hircine. Anyone who were infected, like the player, stayed behind because they ain't one of Hircine's personal hunters.

Yes, this is exactly it.
It cannot be canon fact because of the inherent ambiguity of TES lore. It is simply stated nowhere that the CoC became the madgod, no matter what some people keep insisting.
It is not ok to take an ambiguous statement and claim that one interpretation is the one and only correct one when there is no actual proof.
People who insist that a detail must be interpreted in one way only fundamentally do not understand the nature of TES lore, in my opinion.
Go research the life and history of Tiber Septim, and then come tell me which of all those widely differing accounts should be seen as 'canon fact'.
Similar for the madgod.
As is, anyone could have mantled him and there is no proof to indicate otherwise. There is conjecture based on vague statements, but no proof.

merari, your argument makes no sense. you say theres no proof yet the same principle must to apply to the coc and the oblivion? what "proof" do you have that is different from the proof regarding si? the proof is no different, and you are applying two sets of logic/reasoning to the same principles, and that is simply illogical. si is canon, just like ob mq is canon, just like mw mq is canon, and just like skyrim mq is canon. the facy is, the coc DID go through the portal. he had the amulet, no way to get around that.

There is no proof required to test one piece of conjecture against another.
As conjecture it is bound to the realms of logic and credibility, but not proof, otherwise it would not be conjecture.
What is required is that these two conjectures can exist side by side, both equally valid because both unprovable, even though circumstantial evidence and other things do point to the likelyhood of the CoC mantling the madgod being the correct one.
However that does not mean it is canon fact, it means it is the most likely conjecture made on available information.
And please, please, please, no one mention one more time I am refuting the story as canon, as I am not and never have and have said so to the point of sickening. I am saying that it is conjecture that the CoC was the hero in the events of Shivering, and this is a lot more logical and consistent with said available information than to declare it canon fact.

or just play the game to realize that no one but the coc did infact become the madgod. and he did. we all did. and we were all the coc as well.

You have to assume anything beyond Oblivion's MQ was optional and so might and might not have happened.

The CoC might have become Sheogorath, he might have become leader of the Knights of the Nine, he might have become the Gray Fox, or leader of the Dark Brotherhood, or the Archmage, or head of the Fighter's Guild.

I doubt he could have become all of them, because the Knights of the Nine were incompatible with the Thieves and Assassins guilds. So similarly the Sheogorath questline was only a possibility depending on whether someone's Champion chose to do it.

You can't tell me my Champion became Sheogorath when I never played that expansion. But I can't tell you your's didn't if you did play it.

i think that the only thing that matters is the sheo was mantled by a mortal toward the end of the third era, or the beginning of the fourth. If you listen to his dialoge its more implied that he was teh listener and the gray fox than anything else. And it doesn't really matter who mantled the sheo becuase someone did, the end result is the same no matter what.

Personally i subscribe to the theroy that the champion did everything (guilds and main quests), but that doesn't mean that anyone elses champion had to do those things, just as long as they got done

So using your logic, Mehrunes Razor should still be in Cyrodill and not in Skyrim, if you didn't bother doing the DLC from Oblivion,

If Beth releases it for you to play, then it's happened, so SI is Canon whether you do it or not

Had anyone ever thought about the Default Champion of Cyrodiil that Bethesda made to be their Canon one in the Lore?

If you really need to find a reason as to why Sheo knows so much.Maybe he keeps an eye on exceptional individuals and tracks what they do.That should be a good enough reason to explain why Sheo had Knowledge of the things he did in Skyrim.

If it is not well not everyone has to be reasonable.

I reviewed what Sheogorath says, and it looks like you may be right. There are other possible explanations for what he says, but his being the Champion of Cyrodiil seems to fit best.

There is also a 200 year gap between Shivering Isles and Skyrim. We know that the CoC became, at one point, Sheogorath. This is not arguable, regardless of whether or not you bothered to complete the MQ in Oblivion.

However, there was no indication that the CoC gained immortality or longer life because of it. Sheogorath's mind could have overtaken the CoC's body and left him mortal, only to move on to another body in 50 or so years when the Champion finally falls. That's actually how I prefer to think about it. Sheogorath seems much more interesting if he's changing hosts constantly. He would obviously keep all of his memories and emotions gathered along the way.

So is that body really the CoC? Or is it another host? I'd prefer not to know, but I feel it's a new body. The Nerevarine is still alive (presumably), but we'll never see him again (or pictures/statues of him) because there is no canon on what his race was. We'll never see a picture of the Dragonborn, Eternal Champion, or Hero of Daggerfall for the same reason. We will see Cyrus (from Redguard for those who never played the game) because his appearance was canon. I don't believe they would break that trend with the CoC.

One year after the events of Oblivion Crisis the Champion of Cyrodiil was discovered locked up in an Imperial lunatic asylum babbling on about how he had travelled to the Shivering Isles and become the Mad God. The healers tried to nurse him back to health but he never recovered.

I think this is silly. Beth obviously put those hints in his dialog to tell you your previous character is now Sheogorath. I believe all things that are possible in a single game are cannon to the lore of The Elder Scrolls. Just because you don't want the CoC for whatever reason to not be Sheogorath and ignore the obvious nudges that he once was him doesn't make the lore incorrect. I mean, why else would they put that dialog in the game? There are several references to previous games in this one and to say they don't really connect to the actual lore is silly.

Well... After the SI quests, you can talk to Haskill and he mentions that "You will grow into your seat in time..." The Champion of Cyrodiil prolly became Sheogorath over time and gained his personality, abilities, and looks. That is always possible.

That is certainly possible. Regardless, either of our explanations support the theory that the Sheogorath that appeared to the Dragonborn was not what the CoC looked like.

There's an awful lot of evidence to suggest that the New Sheogorath is the CoC but there is nothing that could be construed as absolute proof. I personally believe that the CoC and New Sheo are one and the same, but the most I could do would be to point out all the evidence and ask people to draw their own conclusions.


Whoever Sheogorath's new champion was, he or she transformed. Of course, such things such as physical appearance and gender are near-meaningless for Daedric Princes.

I always understood Sheogorath as being more a concept, an idea, having been given a living, physical form.

The line that reminds me of it was Jyggalag's: "Mortal? God? Perhaps you will grow to your station."

Sheogorath is the living curse of madness, and any mortal who becomes able to assume his station and staff eventually becomes the same Sheogorath as has always been seen. And while one may become the Madgod, all have the potential spark for madness.

It's like gravity! Just takes a little push.

Sheogorath is more a concept made as a specific, living entity, hence why he looks just the same as he did in the Shivering Isles expansion. It's kind of like when you sign on to work with a specific company, you're sometimes expected to take on wearing the company colors and you might even gradually change some other aspects of your appearance in order to better suit the work.

So it really is the Champion of Cyrodiil, but also not really. Not anymore. He is now fully flush in the glory of madness that is Sheogorath, and is fully Sheogorath all the madness of his glory.

im not sure where i read this but i think it was canon. it says that the champion of cyrodiil became sheogorath.

it happens in the expansion shivering isles :/

The CoC could also choose to appear to mortals as the typical Sheogorath and still retain his true form in the shivering isles.

I agree, and I like to think it's more prsective then some would belive.I my-self took it as that was my character from Oblivion who stoped the grey march,saved the madness relm and is now out spreading that glorious madness where ever he goes.But thats just me.To each his own.WE ARE ARGUING ABOUT A DAEDRIC GOD OF MADNESS, he could be anyone or anything thats the beauty of it all.