I think the OP's idea has merit, but that seems to go against the idea of one single character of any race that can be archmage, listener/thieve's guild master, and leader of the companions that seemed to have been the goal in Skyrim.

Nonsense. You wouldn't have to choose an Orc in order to role play a warrior--any character of whatever race could still become a warrior. It would just be a little more of a challange. Something to do in the game besides just riding along. And who cares what Min-maxers do? It's their game, let 'em play it that way if they want to.

According to the OP (unless I've misinterpreted), an Orc would be the "best" warrior, and other races would not be able to match it, whether they put in more work or not. I didn't say I cared what min-maxers do, (I min-max myself on occasion) just that it would make the choice of race tied to the choice of class/archetype, while currently we have 2 choices.

Choice of Race should not be about strategy, it should be about identity.

Its TES. Start Construction Kit, create a new mod that implements your idea, post it on Skyrimnexus.

Then you will see what others think about your idea.

I'd not download it. But some may.

There are some people in the real world who have all the attributes to be a warrior, and are not interested--they want to be actors, or scholars. It would be fun to play a tanky orc who wants to be a scholar. That isn't strategy, that is roleplaying an identity.

What does this mean, exactly? It makes sense to me that certain races should excel at different things, both from a TES lore perspective as well as traditional fantasy game archetypes. I would expect an orc to excel at physical combat and not be as good as a stealthy or magic using character. Does this mean you couldn't play an orc as a sorcerer or an Altmer as a war hammer wielding loincloth wearing barbarian? Of course not. But they shouldn't be just as good with either play style...that's boring.

This is what I would want as well.

Yes, it would go against what Skyrim was aiming for, but doesn't it go against what Skyrim was aiming for, that Bretons actually have the by far best racial ability? Other races can only get to the same standing via enchanted gear!

As TES is currently, some races are more gifted in certain skills initially. But if I want to create a character who was born an Orc but rebelled against the expectations of his brethren and had a burning desire to excel as a mage, then he could put the effort in and actually excel as a mage. It would just be more work for him than for an Altmer. (And TES has many NPCs which fit this 'going against the grain' trope). I don't believe that every race should be identical except for appearance, just that it's possible for a player to develop any race to be the 'best' at what they want to be best at.

These arguments seem to be wanting to impose MMO limitations on TES. The racial restrictions in (older) MMORPGs are there because they are necessary for that kind of game design, not because they are good. The need to restrict what role a player has in a group/raid situation is not pertinent to Skyrim. And newer MMORPGs like Rift are doing away with the restriction of 'role' anyway, which I think is heading in the right direction. We are lucky that TES has already arrived there.

Edit: To answer your question, if I was going to build a tank to raid in an MMO, my choice of race would be an important strategic choice, and everything else would have to take a back seat to end game strategy, but in a single player open world my choice of race should be about the character I want to play. It's identity in how it looks, how it is treated by NPCs and what back story I might create for him/her.

I'm sorry, but as long as Orcs have Berserk and get the initial base skill point boosts in Warrior skills, race has some link to "strategy."

These things like racial traits and racial abilities are put into the game to give players some idea of what, in lore and design, each race is "good" at.

Yes, but they do not apply limitations to end game strategy. They are there to show the natural differences between races, but not to impose those differences on players for the entire game. If you have the time and the inclination, any race can be what you want in the game. My opinion is that it should be this way.

Your good ideas about adding extra skill related content look like they would belong in the perk system to me.

That is incorrect.

A High Elf will always, always, have more Magicka than everyone else if the other races don't build up extra Magicka in lieu of something else and even if they do the High Elf can just stack even more extra Magicka on top of what they already have, thus making a High Elf at end game be able to cast more spells than any other race.

Same for Khajiit, they will always have more hand-to-hand damage because of their claws which makes them the prime "Monk" class and no one can match them if they decide to bolster that.

And again, I'm not sure why you keep looking at this as "imposing differences" when what I have suggested, especially in the case of the Orcs, will have the same effect on the player that plays an Orc Mage as the current system has; which is none. Beserk has almost no bearing whatsoever on Orc Mages, these proposed additions would follow that.

Your main idea is good for making new characters often as a base play through. But one thing Bethesda said was if you want to change you vocation whenever and where-ever you want. And with no penalty with the change, they wanted to get away from the "Make new character Classes, and starting over" routine from Oblivion.

But there is no penalty in this for rolling an Orc Mage instead of an Orc Warrior. Currently if you make an Orc Mage, your base skill buffs and Berserk are going to go largely, or completely, unused. These racial ideas I am proposing would as well, or they could even help a variety of different archetypes and builds.

You're comparing minor differences to


Something that you would deny characters of other races.

Tying end game builds and strategies to race would be retrogressive design for a game like Skyrim.

How exactly does one race getting +5% extra exp to all skills (supposed to be skills) deny a High Elf? Currently Orcs have higher base levels for some skills than other races which means if those other races want to be the same archetype they have to spend more time with those skills. This is no different.

Not to mention, it's a single player game, so how fast a race gets to one archetype or to level 81 versus another bears little meaning, because as it stands now it bears little meaning.

Lets pretend that racial bonuses and abilities are actually significant in the end game.

K, let me get this straight... you said: "+5% extra exp to all stats when wearing full Heavy Armor." This is for an Orc. This doesn't stop an Orc from not wearing Heavy Armor, playing a mage and not getting the bonus, I get that. But it does stop a Bosmer wearing Heavy Armor from having 105 as all of their skills (or a 5% increase in Health/Magicka/Stamina, if you did mean stats) at end game. I got the impression from your first post that these racials would be permanent differences tying the race to the race's natural archetype (Orc-tank, etc). - Quote: "but it will in the end place one race above all others in that races' "best" field of play," To me this is a serious impact. How is it "no different"?

You make the assumption that Orcs with this skill will breach 100 instead of stop at it.

So, no different.

What's described in the OP is definitely different.

Well (as can be read in my other posts) I have no problem with all races being able to achieve the same strategic caps, (and to be fair you do say stats in your original post, which do not have flat caps). It's the implications in this quote that I do not agree with: "but it will in the end place one race above all others in that races' "best" field of play,". You imply that your changes carry all the way to end game and continue to have an impact, and to distinguish a race.

The game already has starting differences dependent on race, but it doesn't impose those differences on any race's end game. Whatever you want to do to change that dynamic will detract from the game in my opinion. If you want to further accentuate those differences, and make a starting Orc character very different to a starting Bosmer character I have no problem with that either, so long as a player has the opportunity to even out the differences through game play. if they are retained, then this is an artificial restriction reminiscent of an MMO, but without the necessity for it that an MMO has.

An Orc Mage won't use Beserk often, or ever; an Orc Mage won't make use of the less Health equals more weapon damage trait often or ever either.

So, again, traits that make an Orc a better Warrior, if they go Warrior, won't hurt their ability to go Mage.



The bolded part is not true.

High Elves will always have more Magicka than other races, especially if they are built to expand on that starting Magicka bonus.

That's not the direction Skyrim is headed.

Are you seriously implying that the game's current racial bonuses and abilities are significant in the end game? Really?

Racial diversity now that is what i'm talking about bring back PnP rules!! whoo hoo yeah!!

And yet it still contains starting differences that can, at end game, put one race on a better level than others.

Tired of the High Elf example?

Dunmer have 50% Fire Resist, which means they can increase it if they wish while others have to build it up to match the Dunmer. While the other races are striving to equal the Dunmer, the Dunmer can spend time and effort elsewhere.



Are you suggesting that the differences between races is basically meaningless?