Skyrims Perk flaws : V - Skyrim

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:24 am

Having played Skyrim and then Oblivion, I can safely say that I prefer perks over attributes ANYDAY. You have so much more control over your character's specializations - you can be a jack-of-all-trades if you wish, but you'll never master all of the skills. An archer can become incredibly deadly- paralyzing enemies or just executing them in one hit. Or, you could simply be great with a bow, dealing more damage than a regular archer, but never quite mastering the skill.

In Oblivion, you'd simply level up all of your skills, evenly disperse your attributes and BAM! Master of everything.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:48 am

Having played Skyrim and then Oblivion, I can safely say that I prefer perks over attributes ANYDAY. You have so much more control over your character's specializations - you can be a jack-of-all-trades if you wish, but you'll never master all of the skills. An archer can become incredibly deadly- paralyzing enemies or just executing them in one hit. Or, you could simply be great with a bow, dealing more damage than a regular archer, but never quite mastering the skill.

In Oblivion, you'd simply level up all of your skills, evenly disperse your attributes and BAM! Master of everything.

You didn't just BAM become master of everything in oblivion. It took A LOT of grinding in that case to level your skills in oblivion, and a lot of time. A lot more time than it takes to level your skills in Skyrim. It took me forever to get to level 25 in Oblivion. In skyrim you can become level 25 in a day or two easily.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:02 am

Speech is useless really. I hardly even leveled up my speech, i think it was at 18.. and i never had a problem persuading anyone, or intimidating anyone. Not to mention, there is hardly any situations that you can use speech. I'm not saying get rid of speech, just make dialogue so we can all actually use the persuasion, or intimidation.

I took persuade and allure, just because my character should have them to be who she is. You are right though, more opportunities, please. I keep saying this : Speech and Lockpicking aren't useless by and of themselves, but the lack of instances where you need speech, and the easy nature of the picking minigame, make them useless. It's not a problem with skill trees, it's a problem with the world in these cases.
Anyway, OT, personally I prefer starting the same and ending different, than starting different and ending the same. The perks system, with a bit more starting variation, would be great.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:20 pm

I think it's good to have limited perks. I think the perks tend to be overpowered. And I think it's silly you can put a perk into any category, even if it's a skill you haven't used.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:02 am

I like the perk system especially it limited a character who cannot master everything and therefore replay value is higher. But the perk itself need more looks into.

For example: warrior skill should have some 1 way perk, for example 2 forward power attack versions, you can either choose one, one is a focused attack with higher damage to one target. The other one will punch less but multi targets. Those attack should have different animation also. Which allow more unique character building.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:38 am

Alot of perks are rubbish...thats the first problem. The second is you can be a jack of all trades in skyrim. The way it was in oblivion and the variety was much better. Blind freddy could see that

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:19 am

You didn't just BAM become master of everything in oblivion. It took A LOT of grinding in that case to level your skills in oblivion, and a lot of time. A lot more time than it takes to level your skills in Skyrim. It took me forever to get to level 25 in Oblivion. In skyrim you can become level 25 in a day or two easily.

Lot of grinding? Hardly. I do not want to start a major discussion, but between level 20-30 on an normally played character(no grinding) I had good stats all over(except luck and personality) and could easily have been a different archetype entirely should I decide to train the skills.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:30 pm

Its mostly a matter of opinion, personally I prefer Skyrim's leveling and perk system far more than any of the previous games. I never liked the idea that someone could become a complete master of everything, from a gameplay perspective I guess it doesn't really matter but from a roleplaying perspective it seems absurd. I mean it takes decades to truly master swordsmanships, or archery, or smithing, not to mention the magical arts...I can only imagine how long it would really take to master such skills. My only complaint I have with skyrim's perk system is that I want Bethesda to hurry up and fix the bugs with the various perks, apart from that I am happy with it all.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:57 am

I personally disagree, perks in this game are WAY inbalanced. I'm a spell-sword type class; for anyone that doesn't know what that is, it's basically a person that uses a variation of Swords and Spells. According to that, I am very limited, and here's my list to show how it's limited, and what my opinion is. This may be a spoiler, so I'll put it in in case anyone wishes to read it or not.

Spoiler

I want 100 Enchanting, not too many useful perks there, but a few would be nice.

I want 100 Destruction, and almost every perk involved with it, which may be like 15+. (excluding the upgrading ones)

I want 100 Block, and like I said, almost every perk involved with it. Shields are more helpful than potions in this game for some reason. Minus20+perk points.

I want 100 Heavy Armor, have always been a fan of it, and want a decent sum of perk points from it, just for the armor rating and etc.

I want 100 One-Handed, and most; if not, ALL the perks coming with it. I am a spell-sword, so having 100 destruction/one-handed would be very effective.

I want 100 Smithing, and again, almost every perk coming with it, probably just so I can craft my own armor and weaponry.

I want 100 Conjuration, and a decent set of perks, not a lot. Maybe enough to get the one that summons dual-atronachs.

I want 100 Restoration, and yet again, a decent set of perks. Healing spells can be your friend if you have no potions :3

I want 100 Alchemy, and a lot of the perks, maybe not all of them, just so my potions are more effective, or im more successful, or I can just make potions in general.

So there's my list. Can I get all I want from this? No.

This doesn't ruin the game. This is VERY limited, compared to the maaany other skills that are in the game.

I want a chance to make a good character, but If I can't even set the skills for what a spell-sword NEEDS, rather enjoying the game, which would be how it's defined, thenthere's really no point to even buying the game.

'Fully Customizable!'

Sigh... Bethesda, you might as well say that ANY variation between two classes is disallowed, because you are FORCED to limit yourself if you want anything good from it.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:46 am

Alot of perks are rubbish...thats the first problem. The second is you can be a jack of all trades in skyrim. The way it was in oblivion and the variety was much better. Blind freddy could see that

Ha! That is easier than ever in skyrim lmao. Half these pricks have no idea

No idea of what? That you can be a jack of all trades in Skyrim, but a master of all trades in Oblivion, or that getting perks at certain skill levels without any choice in the matter actually gives you less variety? Play OB forever, all characters are about the same. Play Skyrim forever, each character will be a bit different.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:37 pm

One more insult, th346, are you will be reported.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:18 pm

You can master anything in skyrim, you are limited somewhat in oblivion with different races. There is also more to choose from in oblivion you fool, pull your head out of your [censored] or take off the rose tinted glasses. Havent played oblivion for years kent, the fact is skyrim is dumbed down. Cod crowd perhaps?

You like mixing up classes right?

Kiss that factor goodbye. In Skyrim, if you use a variation of anymore than ONE class (swords, spells, bows), then you'll have to LIMIT yourself to the other things you can get, just to make the two classes better.

What part of that makes the game fair? I think YOU need to pull your head out of your own [censored]

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:39 am

You can master anything in skyrim, you are limited somewhat in oblivion with different races. There is also more to choose from in oblivion you fool, pull your head out of your [censored] or take off the rose tinted glasses. Havent played oblivion for years kent, the fact is skyrim is dumbed down. Cod crowd perhaps?

If you take master to mean a skill of 100, then yes. If you take master to mean actually master, then no, you certainly can not. Any two Oblivion characters, however they start, will eventually have all skills and attributes at 100, or thereabouts if you play your class and don't max the attributes before the skills, and the same 84 perks. How can that possibly mean more variety that a maximum number of perks far below the total?

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:45 pm

I like the perk system because it does force you to choose and additionally you don't end up being uber-everything. Niamh therefore is perfectly average at some things but better at other and that works really well.
I think it's a better system than Oblivion's...

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:02 am

One of Skyrims greatest flaws is the perk tree. You gain a perk every time you level and you are able to put the point into any tree. But the amount of perks you have are limited, 81 being the highest level. This means that although you can become a master at every art it wont be effective because of the perk limitations. In previous TeS games this was not true, attributes and ranking up to apprentice, adept, expert, and master made you better in that skill along with leveling up the skill normally. In skyrim this isn't the case you only get a minor benefit from leveling the skills up, the main customization are the perks which you are limited to.

The perking system was a bad choice for a good game. Without the attributes and a good leveling system skyrim was really held back from being an even better game.

What does everyone else think?

Well, I miss attributes, but I don't recall a TES game with a good leveling system so not sure how to relate to that. Honestly I would have preferred that attributes leveled automatically based on what you did skill wise, as opposed to people hunting for multipliers and picking which attributes to raise first. Course even with that people would still be meta-gaming which skills they used to raise the attributes they wanted raised.

So, while I miss attributes, I can see why taking them out was done. Oddly enough, after 450+ hours, I don't miss them that much (though I still catch myself hopping down the road from time to time).

With the absence of attributes the perks are absolutely needed as they are now the new way to define a character. I do not want the perks to be automatic either (like OB). For example every character I have retired has had a very high Lockpicking score (80+). Why, because every character I play has to pick hundreds of locks. But I have never ever ever and never will select a Lockpicking perk (they are a total waste IMO). I instead put my perks on other things. So while I may retire two level 50 characters, and they both have very high Lockpicking skills, the two characters are completely different due to the perks I did select.

I'll be honest I was one of those that hated the new system before the game came out. But the more I play the game, even up to higher levels, I find that the current system is about the fairest TES has had. It is not perfect, and it is simplified, but it works well enough, which is more than what you can say about some other TES games.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:15 pm

Funny.

The OP pointed out exactly what I like about the perk system.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:12 pm

You like mixing up classes right?

Kiss that factor goodbye. In Skyrim, if you use a variation of anymore than ONE class (swords, spells, bows), then you'll have to LIMIT yourself to the other things you can get, just to make the two classes better.

What part of that makes the game fair? I think YOU need to pull your head out of your own [censored]

Your playing it wrong...lol
My orc orc can do whatever the hell he wants, whenever i want and its my second char. If you actually look at all the perks more than half are useless and if you use your points on the ones worth while you will have plenty to spare rose tint. Ha

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:41 am

I like the perk system because it does force you to choose and additionally you don't end up being uber-everything. Niamh therefore is perfectly average at some things but better at other and that works really well.
I think it's a better system than Oblivion's...

Well my char is uber whatever i want and very easily, at least it took longer in oblivion

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:29 am

I personally disagree, perks in this game are WAY inbalanced. I'm a spell-sword type class; for anyone that doesn't know what that is, it's basically a person that uses a variation of Swords and Spells. According to that, I am very limited, and here's my list to show how it's limited, and what my opinion is. This may be a spoiler, so I'll put it in in case anyone wishes to read it or not.

Spoiler

I want 100 Enchanting, not too many useful perks there, but a few would be nice.

I want 100 Destruction, and almost every perk involved with it, which may be like 15+. (excluding the upgrading ones)

I want 100 Block, and like I said, almost every perk involved with it. Shields are more helpful than potions in this game for some reason. Minus20+perk points.

I want 100 Heavy Armor, have always been a fan of it, and want a decent sum of perk points from it, just for the armor rating and etc.

I want 100 One-Handed, and most; if not, ALL the perks coming with it. I am a spell-sword, so having 100 destruction/one-handed would be very effective.

I want 100 Smithing, and again, almost every perk coming with it, probably just so I can craft my own armor and weaponry.

I want 100 Conjuration, and a decent set of perks, not a lot. Maybe enough to get the one that summons dual-atronachs.

I want 100 Restoration, and yet again, a decent set of perks. Healing spells can be your friend if you have no potions :3

I want 100 Alchemy, and a lot of the perks, maybe not all of them, just so my potions are more effective, or im more successful, or I can just make potions in general.

So there's my list. Can I get all I want from this? No.

This doesn't ruin the game. This is VERY limited, compared to the maaany other skills that are in the game.

I want a chance to make a good character, but If I can't even set the skills for what a spell-sword NEEDS, rather enjoying the game, which would be how it's defined, thenthere's really no point to even buying the game.

'Fully Customizable!'

Sigh... Bethesda, you might as well say that ANY variation between two classes is disallowed, because you are FORCED to limit yourself if you want anything good from it.

Well it is a SP game and if you want to play a demi-god I guess you can. Personally I never perk more than one crafting skill. From a Role-Playing perspective I can not justify anyone being able to actually be that good at more than one craft. This also prevents the demi-god of crafting build that you end up with. Sure one-hitting dragons is fun, for about two dragons...

I have retired eight characters now and only a couple of them got any skill up to 100, however I have had a blast playing every one of them.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:17 am

Well it is a SP game and if you want to play a demi-god I guess you can. Personally I never perk more than one crafting skill. From a Role-Playing perspective I can not justify anyone being able to actually be that good at more than one craft. This also prevents the demi-god of crafting build that you end up with. Sure one-hitting dragons is fun, for about two dragons...

I have retired eight characters now and only a couple of them got any skill up to 100, however I have had a blast playing every one of them.

This.
Niamh is very good at a few things, about average at others and pretty rubbish at others. Much more realistic and much more fun because she has to think more about what she does and she can't rely on having a million percent in something.
I guess it depends on how you want to roleplay, and as said it is a sandbox but if you want loads of stuff maxed then surely that's gonna take the fun out of the experience...?

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:24 pm

The perk system is good with some glaring exceptions. Off the top of my head I'm thinking of the Night Thief perk in the pickpocket tree. It's a completely useless perk that may come in handy about twice in 300 hours of play. But you have to take it to get the poisoner and pocket perks, both of which are very useful. Why would pickpocketing a sleeping person be extra difficult that you'd need a 25% bonus? Silly.

In the Sneak tree you have to take the archery perk before the 15X backstab perk. There are other instances as well. But mostly they're annoyances. I think they got it about 90% right though.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:37 am

I like the current perk system.

Players need to realize that if you increase the number of perks you can get, you'll soon be playing the game in god mode - boring.

Instead, take the number of perks you get and carefully put them where they can do the most good, in skills related to your combat abilities - at least early in the game.

There's plenty of time to increase speech and other skills like that at a later time.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:02 am

The perk system is good with some glaring exceptions. Off the top of my head I'm thinking of the Night Thief perk in the pickpocket tree. It's a completely useless perk that may come in handy about twice in 300 hours of play. But you have to take it to get the poisoner and pocket perks, both of which are very useful. Why would pickpocketing a sleeping person be extra difficult that you'd need a 25% bonus? Silly.

In the Sneak tree you have to take the archery perk before the 15X backstab perk. There are other instances as well. But mostly they're annoyances. I think they got it about 90% right though.

And I have the other problem as my Archer needs to get the first backstab perk before she can get the one she wants with the 3x archer damage. But yeah, the perking order and branches could use some work.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:34 am

This.
Niamh is very good at a few things, about average at others and pretty rubbish at others. Much more realistic and much more fun because she has to think more about what she does and she can't rely on having a million percent in something.
I guess it depends on how you want to roleplay, and as said it is a sandbox but if you want loads of stuff maxed then surely that's gonna take the fun out of the experience...?

For me, it isn't about having a million points in something, it's about being able to change up my tactics after I've beaten the game without having to start completely from scratch. I'd like to be able to get more than the 80 perks, because for the sake of my RPing, those perks are another way of manifesting the power of dragon souls after I get all the shouts. Every time I kill a dragon, I take on more dragon-esque qualities, whether they be physical or mental. That's why my fighting style has changed from running in fear from dragons (like I did early on) to my only cover from them being a shield. My character's mentality has changed to as she begins to identify more with dragons (who are trying to prove their stronger than other dragons) and less with humans (who run away because that's a freakin' dragon!).

But after a while, you hit the glass ceiling. You can continue to progress through the game, but your character's own progression in terms of their abilities grinds to a halt. This is understandable if they had reached the very peak of their power, but I don't feel that's really what happens.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:15 pm

Yes, it is limitation in other words.

I am perfectly fine with it, if i make a spell sword use I will use 1 hand, destruction, armor, smithing, enchanting. 80 perks is more than enough to make decent character. More than it is no longer spell sword, it is god sword.

What is the fun just learn every perk and max all skill? The limitation enhanced the advancing direction and give more depth to you perk choice. It is a satisfaction to build a successful class under such limitation. A focused build will always stronger than a jack of all trade build within its boundary but will not able to do as much. That's balance my friend.