Yeah well you know what? Try playing it on Master. And see how Sneaking goes ..

I think it is less that you can't get seen ever and more that you one-shot pretty much everything with the 30x multiplier you get from the appropriate gloves and perk that makes sneaking really overpowered. Assuming you don't use the enchanting/smithing/alchemy exploit, this just makes the difficulty of the game pretty much non-existent. I've never been one to use sneak explicitly, I just use it from time to time to keep leveling it, but I hear my friends talking about using it an I'm just like, I guess if that's what you find fun, power too you- Guess in a way, that's what skyrim is all about. If you don't think you should get spotted in the light, don't sneak through the light. If you don't wanna kill everything without a fight, don't rock those gloves with the perk. Play how you wanna play.

Alternately, I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with "everything is overpowered if you play it right." I don't think anything compares to sneak. On master, the highest level destruction spells barely do anything to levelled enemies, shield charging isn't THAT incredible- more just for fun--- I guess it just comes do to the fact that if you wanna exploit certain aspects of the game, it's going to be all kinds of easy (not that TES has ever been made to be all that difficult) whereas if you constrict yourself in ways you find realistic, you should ensure that you have a challenging and enjoyable playthrough.

Hope this helps rationalize some things...

Could you address Falmar's and re123's points about this? They both give very good examples on what exactly the issues are.

There have more than a few times I tried to backstab something, his buddies found me and I died. Yes at 100 skill and perks I better be able to pull some wild stuff off.

To the people that complain about being undetected in broad daylight, or standing 2 inches from someones face, that's where it's time to just use ones imagination. I agree that it looks silly being undected in those conditions but people wouldn't complain if there was an animation for it, for example, when sneak skill is high enough you gain invisibility 50%. So now ok, they can't see me in broad day light, but I'm shrouded. The game doesn't do that for you though. If it bothers you just don't use sneak or don't heavily perk it, etc. Or just imagine you are shrouded.

Sneak is fine. I've had 100 sneak for half the time I've been playing, I can't just wander around under people's noses, it is not overpowered or broken. Even in dark and shadows, and me standing completely still, if someone gets close, they'll see me - period. I mean I can fool draugr pretty well, seems they are always stupid, but, well, they're reanimated corpses, right? They aren't supposed to be smart.

The one thing I can see needing tweaking *might* be how quickly they stop searching for you *if* they see a corpse of a friend. If you shoot from a distance and miss, I can see how they may look for a few seconds and then give up.
but if their buddy sitting next to them at a table just drops dead with a big arrow in his head, and his soul goes screaming over to a dark spot over in a corner 100 feet away (you all have bows with soul svcker enchant, right? ) ... I'd look for a while longer.
also, I'm playing on Master, and occasionally Expert - don't know what the difference is to Sneak in these levels, but haven't noticed that I'm invisible when sneaking with 100 skill at the lowest skill level anyway.

I avoid many skills and many perks because they break the game. Sneak is one of them, which svcks because I love sneaky characters.

I don't use sneak/enchanting/smithing unless playing in dead is dead mode.

Agreed. That's the only thing I'd change about it. In fact, once the bad guys spot the corpse of one of their own, they should search for you until either:

a ) They find you
b ) You kill them
c ) You leave the area

More realistic, and corpse-dragging will play into tactics.

There is a big diffrence between Expert and being god..

The AI and sneak attack ability in general is really just rather http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8bPf6v5U3M. Not my video by any means, try to ignore the immature comments and just appreciate the hilarity and absurdity of the player's success here.

In case anyone is wondering, the player drops and makes loud grunts 3 times from being injured, in close proximity to the target. They then proceed to swing twice at the target at almost point blank range, missing both times before doing a dual wield power sneak attack and killing it instantly.

Good points. It's really more MOB reaction than overpowered sneak. It seems a bit odd when they see that dead buddy with an arrow sticking out of his ear and their response is "it must have been my imagination. "

Thanks this does. So it seems that yes Sneak is more exploitable than other perks in the game, but in the end, Skyrim lends itself to a more active roll playing style, rather then letting the game rules dictate what you're able to do. Maybe someday there will be a mod that confines play within the game rules, like Baldur's gate has with the mod "tutu," and others, but until then I still plan on getting a lot of enjoyment out of skyrim.

Besides, there are some pluses to constraining your own style of play. Maybe more investment in the character?

But you should only be spotted by NPCs that have a high awareness value, I believe they use Sneak in this game, it was something else in Morrowind. Sure, line of sight in broad daylight, that should allow detection most of the time, however people who are experts at camouflage or misdirection or "blending in" can sneak under any lighting conditions.

You also do not have to avoid detection by every NPC, just the ones that would raise alarm over your actions.

Absolutely!

I'm amazed at all the threads about something being "overpowered" when you've mastered it.

If you've mastered something it should be powerful.

If your character is at a high level with tons of buffs, then he or she should be very powerful.

Very powerful is not the same as overpowered, in my opinion.

As far as sneak goes, the game is pretty much impossible at low levels without it.

It doesn't seem over-powered to me, but then, I don't have any characters with 100 in sneak. All of my characters except one uses sneak to get in closer to see what's going on before joining battle. It's never really given me any awesome advantage though, except for my thief character that uses it to pick off enemies with his high archery skill (with perks). All of the others just get a chance to get in closer, and get the first blow. An advantage for sure, but hardly over-powering. Without the archery and sneak perks, that single x2 damage shot isn't really game breaking- plus two of my characters are mages who rarely use a bow. Sneaking just gives them the opportunity to either drop an Atronach exactly where I want, or to get in the first thunderbolt before being attacked.

Of course, I also haven't tried to power-level sneak, either. I just use it when making my way through dungeons, and have yet to reach 100 skill on any of my characters- 3 of whom are in the 40s, including one that is 49. I think it's in the upper 80s on that one.

If you power-level sneak, and perk it up (as well as perking up archery), I'm sure it's over-powered, perhaps even game-breaking. If you just "use sneak" as a way to get around a bit more safely, then it most certainly is NOT.

oh yeah! the corpse dragging would be fun. I love scenarios where one or more guys are patrolling a fixed route, you whack one with paralysis poison, finish him off with a quiet throat cut, then dump him off a cliff and crouch to wait for #2. Now *that's* fun!

Hey man, don't be afraid to make a sneak character and try it out. I'm saying if you're level 1 and want to start off with a dagger and backstab everything, it's not going to work out so well, unless you take another skill to help. At that point sneak isn't going to be that awesome, but after you keep trying for hours and hours and hours (did I mention hours?) your sneak skill will level and you'll find gear. After awhile you will become powerful, that's no different than most other skills in the game though. In fact, that's no different than any other rpg ever made in the history of rpgs. Level, keep leveling, get gear, become powerful.

As far as the sneak mechanics go, I agree with CCNA.

I'd have to disagree with you on that last point. I haven't used sneak much and the game is "harder" but certainly not impossible. As to your other point of mastery, this is a fantasy role playing game and certainly inhuman or extraordinary talents must exist. And not everything needs to be demonstrated with in the visual game environment. For example, you crouch when you sneak, but if you could imagine your character lying fully prone in the day light grass nearly undetectable by the human eye it's easier to digest.

That said, sneak still seems to stand out as the one perk that's most exploitable.

Seriously, that video just isn't my experience. I am at 100 sneak and anyone, even mud crabs, will see me once I am within 10 feet and I make any attack. The only ones who seem to be stupid are draugr, and after thinking a bit, the falmer can be kind of easy to sneak on too.

but yeah, the grunts from falling ought to alert mr. Dragon there.

I actually did and sneak is certainly more fun in the lower levels. In my main build though I don't use it much on purpose and I seem to get more enjoyment out of the game. Personal preference. As to your point about it being the same as all other rpgs I'd have to disagree. Becoming powerful is standard but, if you're playing BG2 at higher levels and have a thief in your party, attempting a backstab is probably not going to be the end the any given encounter. It's happened, but really it's just the opening volley, because once your thief performs the backstab, he's revealed.

I define sneakiness and camouflage as two different things. If I'm crouched down five feet in front of an NPC in Solitude on a bright sunny day, and I don't want that person to see me, then I'd better be disguised as a vegetable stand.


That doesn't make much sense. Either a person can detect you or they can't. It can't be "I (can/cannot) detect you because your intentions are (good/evil)."

A million times ^this^
These discussions keep popping up like this is an MMO, where someone's thief is going to sneak up behind your warrior and steal your sweet roll. It's a single player game, everything can be overpowered if used correctly and that's the fun of it. If you're the type that completely overpowered their character's abilities and now find the game "easy" it's well within your power to fix it.

My thief? Sure I sneak, and i'm damn good at it. But, i'm really squishy and magic hurts me really bad. Sure, I have boethia's armor and spellbreaker, but they're in a box in my house. If I wanted to completely break the game I would keep leveling everything but I didn't, I stick with the skills and gear that are applicable to my character.

My mage, he rarely sneaks at all, relies on magic to overpower everything. It all depends on what kind of character you build.

Im 100+ hours in and have yet to use sneak

That's also a party based rpg correct? I remember playing a mage in that game. I had spell trigger I think it was called. I would load it up with spells and by casting one spell it would cast all the ones I loaded, fireball, chain lightning, summon level 9 demon. My main character was always powerful in that game and towards the end I could solo the game or the least didn't need a full party. Same with Dragon Age.

Skyrim opts for an open world experience that is a different monster than the D&D style games.

I think the mechanics could be better as far as sneaking goes. I agree with what's been said. My point is, you do something long enough in an rpg, and you become powerful.

It has nothing to do with intentions.

A Sneaky person is good at using camouflage or surroundings to hide or misdirect. They go hand in hand. You are also assuming that all NPCs are always looking for someone who is sneaking. A practiced sneak can and will hide in daylight right in front of someone because they blend in. Others may notice them, but they do not see anything to get alarmed about as the person looks like they belong where they are. As long as they are not detected by the target NPC(s) then it does not matter who sees them. An example of this is someone who breaks into a facility and walks down the hall like they own the place. Others see them, but do not see them as a threat so no alarm is raised. They reach their objective without raising alarms, they have successfully sneaked even though they were seen by others. In other words, they sneaked by security in broad daylight.

What I am saying on the second point is, not all NPCs have to see me for one to raise an alarm, nor will all NPCs that see me raise an alarm or care about what I am doing. I have seen this in battles. I have a follower that is engaged with an enemy, I sneak up on the enemy and can get in sneak attacks on them even though I am detected by another NPC across the room. As far as my target is concerned, I am sneaking.