Sneak Overpowered? Are you avoiding it? : V - Skyrim

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:50 am

A Sneaky person is good at using camouflage or surroundings to hide or misdirect.

Camouflage is not a physical trait. Even if you're good at using it, it's something you either have, or you don't. Just because you have 100 sneak, this does not mean you're suitably camoflauged at all times. If I'm standing five feet in front of someone while wearing glistening Elven armor on a bright sunny day, does that mean I'm camoflauged? I can wear whatever I want and it will count as "camouflage" because I'm a really sneaky guy?

You are also assuming that all NPCs are always looking for someone who is sneaking.

I'm doing nothing of the sort. In fact, most wouldn't.

A practiced sneak can and will hide in daylight right in front of someone because they blend in. Others may notice them, but they do not see anything to get alarmed about as the person looks like they belong where they are.

But they're still detected. They're just not causing a panic.

Look, you initially said that at 100 sneak, you shouldn't be detected in broad daylight. I disagree. Whether or not an NPC cares or not that they've "made" you is another matter entirely, but they should see you unless they're totally blind.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:16 am

I think WIP mods like PISE will turn this whole discusison around, once the CK gets out and pluto and the gang can get the "real" work done (although they've already done an outstanding job). Pluto has already tweaked the AI, and yes, if you shoot someone in the back of the head they probably shouldn't shrug it off as a figment of their imagination.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:18 pm

I enjoy it in sittings, but because of how powerful I am and because I know there is no reason for me to ever loot a chest or body because I know I will never find an upgrade and the fact that even advancing and taking Perks no longer matters because it is just overkill from this point is pretty depressing. I have no desire to reroll and do it all over again. I have no desire to gimp myself and work against the nature of RPGs. I am looking forward to the CK, that is the only reason why I did not stop playing sooner. For the most part, I feel the story is shallow and unengaging since Dialog options and character choices do not have much of a impact or matter. People call me a pessemist, but I am really just sick and tired of how aweful games are now. They spend countless hours pouring into voice acting and small little details and the core of the game is just...shallow.

With that said, the game itself is a soild concept. Much of it needs to be tweaked. You can correct things like poor enemy pathing, you just need enemies to either teleport, gate you, or have a ranged attack (or both) always. Combat mechanics need a lot of work and Sneak needs to be re evaluated. In almost all games, Stealth is overpowered, that is just the nature of it however. Enemy population and spawn encounter frequency need a slider option and difficulty options need to be included for the player to use. Enemy scaling should continue post 50 and items should not be static in value to offer true progression.

Sorry the CK?

Oh the Creation Kit... Got it.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:45 pm

I think that's more bad dialogue than bad mechanics. Say they find a dead compadre. They're going to look for you. But eventually, they're going to give up. This is both realistic and good game mechanics. If everyone who saw a dead body, or was in the area with a dead body, went to full alert forever, the sneaky build would be destroyed. And think of it in terms of the movie Die Hard. The terrorists know that John McClane is out there. And they're somewhat on guard because of it. But they also go back to what it is they were doing because eventually, you have to do your thing and just know that someone is out there.

If the dialogue was, "I'll find you eventually" I think it would make sense.

Eventually ends up being about 15-20 seconds of sneak cool-down at which point they sit down right next to dead Bob with the arrow in his head and casually finish their bread and mead even though there's an active sniper in the room. :biggrin:

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:09 pm

My new pure Archer is avoiding it because it takes the fun out of the game one-shotting everything.

I'm just roleplaying that he belives killing someone behind their back is cowardly and likes fighting them face-to-face.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:41 pm

Camouflage is not a physical trait. Even if you're good at using it, it's something you either have, or you don't. Just because you have 100 sneak, this does not mean you're suitably camoflauged at all times. If I'm standing five feet in front of someone while wearing glistening Elven armor on a bright sunny day, does that mean I'm camoflauged? I can wear whatever I want and it will count as "camouflage" because I'm a really sneaky guy?

I agree with your points but at the same time, look at the Silent perk. It may be a misnomer, but doesn't that sound like what Silence kind of does in a way? http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Silence_%28Perk%29

"Walking and running does not affect detection"

Almost sounds like camo to me. I think we're all getting stuck on the oblivion definition, where skyrim has consolidated and changed (or eliminated) a lot of things from the previous TES games.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:01 pm

Eventually ends up being about 15-20 seconds of sneak cool-down at which point they sit down right next to dead Bob with the arrow in his head and casually finish their bread and mead even though there's an active sniper in the room. :biggrin:

Sure, but that's just because people would get bored waiting 20-60 minutes that it should realistically be. Not to mention, the gametime is faster. :biggrin:

I like the idea of dragging corpses out having some effect, but the way they did it isn't completely nutso as it seems. As I said, if they had good dialogue trees, I think they could even do it in a way that made sense and be believable.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:46 pm

Sure, but that's just because people would get bored waiting 20-60 minutes that it should realistically be. Not to mention, the gametime is faster. :biggrin:

Only if you stayed in sneak mode, or al least didn't move from your spot. If they took cover you'd have to move to get an angle on them again, and might have to directly attack.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:10 pm

They won't nerf it. The entire game is out of control. It isn't just Sneak. You Perk out Smithing and can upgrade items to ridiculous numbers and reach the Armor cap. You Perk out Enchanting and your damage (with melee) is so high you one shot anything in the game. You Perk out Enchanting and can make 2 spell schools ENTIRELY FREE TO CAST. You Perk out Destruction and can completely lockdown targets with Stagger. You Perk out Conjuration and send two perma-Dremora to run around killing EVERYTHING without so much as lifting a finger. Perk out 1H and get some EASY to get gloves and now you are assassinating targets in a hit. Sneaking makes you completely invisible.

The fact is that you do not need to exploit to do any of this. Obtaining any of this is not even remotely difficult. The only way to achieve a happy medium is to GIMP YOURSELF and INTENTIONALLY NOT TAKE PERKS OR UPGRADE YOUR ARMOR/WEAPONS.

It's interesting how completely different your game experience is compared to mine.

And no, I don't "lolRP". :shrug:

Of course, I'm not a natural powergamer, either. I have to deliberately set out to overpower things and/or do things the "most efficiently". Playing normally, the way I tend to do in any game, I end up with characters with mid-levels of power in a variety of abilities. Messes me up something fierce in games that DO require powergaming. Ah, well.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:54 pm

Look, you initially said that at 100 sneak, you shouldn't be detected in broad daylight. I disagree.

I did not say that initially. Nor did I say that any armor counts as camouflage. I said that at 100 Sneak, a character should be able use camouflage or misdirection to blend in, even in daylight. I also never said that a character should be undetected, I merely offered reasons as to why a character could be not seen in the game at 100 sneak.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:23 pm

Hey Everyone,
In my build I'm avoiding sneak based on feedback from friends who've played so far. They've told me the game gets too easy with sneak at level 100. We all know the stats, with the items and spells that make sneak even more powerful, and the youtube videos demonstrating this, but I wanted to know if you're playing your character with sneak at a low levels on purpose.

Also,
Do the higher game levels suppress levels for sneak, or are the enemies just harder?

Seems to me that active "role-playing" in Skyrim is needed. Meaning, you may need to set your own parameters in terms of character growth to get the most out of the experience.
Thoughts?

JS

since, i only allow myself 2-3 major skills that can be maxed and 2-4 (50ish max) minors i am able to play much more realistically. 100 sneak with 50 archery works well with my roleplay. or, the opposite.

i plan my build before playing and come up with my own rules to govern my play. for example, my thief can either have 1-h or archery as a primary and i also adjust my perks based on my pregenerated class. some perks i cannot have do to rping.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:46 pm

It's interesting how completely different your game experience is compared to mine.

And no, I don't "lolRP". :shrug:

Of course, I'm not a natural powergamer, either. I have to deliberately set out to overpower things and/or do things the "most efficiently". Playing normally, the way I tend to do in any game, I end up with characters with mid-levels of power in a variety of abilities. Messes me up something fierce in games that DO require powergaming. Ah, well.

It is natural to progress in power. When you find a better weapon, unless it is a conscious RP decision, you equip it. When you level up, it is natural to get the Perk that has the biggest advantage to your character you are building. I think in order to be overpowered you need to go out of your way to do so, not just take certain Perks or wear certain items. When I say overpowered, I mean completely out of scale with the game. You obtain that by just doing things normally. If you disagree that I am not doing things normally, I do not know what to tell you.

Really, you would need to make absolutely idiotic decisions to not be too powerful in this game. It is a misnomer to say that you are not "powergaming". That isn't not powergaming, it is just putting Perk points in haphazardly.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:16 pm

I don't have any talents, so I can't say backstabbing feels that impressive to me with melee weapons. Then again, I haven't invested much in melee talents either (I think I have 2 in one-handed, though it's a heavily smithed and enchanted daedric weapon).

My sneaking is in the 60s and I use that with muffle and invisibility for scouting mostly. It's just gotten to the point where I can sneak up to people reliably to hit them. I did use it to kill the Thalmor represenatives in Markath with magic. No one identified me, so I got away with it clean (I had grabbed the quiet casting talent by that point). Seems alright to me, overall. Of course, I'm not built to exploit it at all. Honestly, I think I'd get bored of playing that way just because of the time it would take. Sometimes I get tired of sneaking and just bullrush through obstacles and I have to say that works pretty much as well and takes a lot less time. Generally I like the scouting intel though.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:34 pm

since, i only allow myself 2-3 major skills that can be maxed and 2-4 (50ish max) minors i am able to play much more realistically. 100 sneak with 50 archery works well with my roleplay. or, the opposite.

i plan my build before playing and come up with my own rules to govern my play. for example, my thief can either have 1-h or archery as a primary and i also adjust my perks based on my pregenerated class. some perks i cannot have do to rping.

There is my proof right there, you have to actively make choices and gimp yourself to not be overpowered. We should not be having to go out of our way to NOT break the game. It should be the other way around. How is that so freaking foreign of a concept for people to grasp?

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:24 pm

Somehow sneak is always the skill I get to 100 first, and that without any trainer help. It levels up too fast for my cautious game style, but I'm not sure what is needed to make it better. Maybe there shouldn't be perks to completely do some of the sneak negations, as sneaking like we do in full armor doesn't make any sense - no matter the skill.

But still, sneak tend to be a major feature of my characters, so I'll perk it up a bit, but I don't think it would be that good if you didn't perk it. Perks or not, we get to use it far beyond its natural limitations. But this is fantasy, and abstractions apply, so I'll cut it some slack. I'm guessing there are situations in close quarters where sneak alone won't help you at all, so for me it doesn't break the game.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:28 pm

If you run through everything like a Nord Juggernaut on Skooma then sneak won't level all the time.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:01 pm

If you run through everything like a Nord Juggernaut on Skooma then sneak won't level all the time.

When you get Silent Roll, that changes. You just hold down Sprint while crouching and roll from target to target killing stuff. Dungeons are cleared in a matter of a few minutes.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:17 am

When you get Silent Roll, that changes. You just hold down Sprint while crouching and roll from target to target killing stuff. Dungeons are cleared in a matter of a few minutes.

<--- 64 dark elf vampire thief

I'm a little familiar with it

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:40 pm

There is my proof right there, you have to actively make choices and gimp yourself to not be overpowered. We should not be having to go out of our way to NOT break the game. It should be the other way around. How is that so freaking foreign of a concept for people to grasp?

What about on master settings? Does that help this situation at all?

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:07 pm

There is my proof right there, you have to actively make choices and gimp yourself to not be overpowered. We should not be having to go out of our way to NOT break the game. It should be the other way around. How is that so freaking foreign of a concept for people to grasp?

Granted that sneak can definitely break the game. There are probably a dozen things that can do that. Paralyze can break the game as well for what it is worth.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:08 pm

What about on master settings? Does that help this situation at all?

Master settings only increases the damage you take and lowers the damage the enemy takes. So it will be harder to one shot things, but you end up getting one shot in return. On the opposite side of the spectrum, this makes combat kind of lame. You end up running around in circles for an a few minutes trying to kill a single target. If you get hit, even once, you will probably die. To offset this, you almost have to exploit resistances. This is why the use of a Shield is so widely used on Master setting (really to Shield bash and lock down enemies). Your only defensive measures really and truly are just running around arms flailing or blocking (if you have that as a choice). They do not have the combat set up for long fights and dps. This isn't like say, Everquest, where you have a ton of tactics you can use to dispatch an enemy.

So really, no it doesn't solve the problem. It will for a time make things take longer to kill and might make you reload more often, and it will take longer to feel overpowered - but it does not correct the situation.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:31 pm

There is my proof right there, you have to actively make choices and gimp yourself to not be overpowered. We should not be having to go out of our way to NOT break the game. It should be the other way around. How is that so freaking foreign of a concept for people to grasp?

we should have the ability to sub-optimally build our character. i want the choice to make my character how i want to play. i don't have to go out of my way to do anything in this game.

should the game have better enemy scaling and some new/different high level enemies? of course.
could beth have implemented a better system? yes.

more types of high level enemies that only appear at levels within your characters range is, for me, the obvious answer.
as well, having the OPTIONAL difficulty slider (that they already had) is a no-brainer.

i better have the option to become a god and the option to make the game as difficult as possible.

you should be able to break the game. the choice to not be able to break it is not difficult to understand.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:54 pm

In the early levels its fun, but eventually I stopped playing as a sneak/backstabber due to one/two hitting everything. Going with destruction/necromancy now and having a lot of fun and more of a challenge.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:38 am

I'm at 85 sneak with allperks taken and I'm OK with it. Ideally it would be a bit less effective but I am still not completely invisible. I have to be careful with mobs to get into position and take out the most dangerous opponent first, as the others will usually see me after the first kill. Makes me think about situations before rushing in - I like that.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:50 pm

My sneak level is like 57 and I'm still never detected so yes I would agree that it's overpowered but I still run around with my dagger and Shrouded Gloves because I love the x30 damage bonus from sneak attacks. It definitely makes it easier for me but hasn't ruined the game like others were saying.