And I commend you on your restraint. Wish all gamers would copy a page from your book.

I agree Sneak can be overpowered, but it doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to ruin a person's game. I mostly use it for recon purposes, and when I'm ready to start taking baddies down, I'll stand up and let them know I'm there.

Sneak is no more or less OP than zero cost casting.

Yes it's party based but you're right... there are the hardcode players out there that play the BG series with one character all the way through. It's tough but they do it... Some also play the game through without any Death or reloads. There are plenty of mods for that series that either increase difficulty or provide more balance.

Your right though... Skyrim is a single player game and is designed as such. And when considering all the posts, whether you think sneak is overpowered or not, the consensus is that Skyrim is best role-played and not just played.

It's a fact that speaks to the games shortcomings and strengths at the same time. There are not many console games where the player can mold the character as much as in Skyrim. It's pretty cool.

I think that's more bad dialogue than bad mechanics. Say they find a dead compadre. They're going to look for you. But eventually, they're going to give up. This is both realistic and good game mechanics. If everyone who saw a dead body, or was in the area with a dead body, went to full alert forever, the sneaky build would be destroyed. And think of it in terms of the movie Die Hard. The terrorists know that John McClane is out there. And they're somewhat on guard because of it. But they also go back to what it is they were doing because eventually, you have to do your thing and just know that someone is out there.

If the dialogue was, "I'll find you eventually" I think it would make sense.

Don't listen to what anyone else has said. Sneaking DOES make you completely invisible if you put Perks into it. You can walk right past enemies and they will not notice you. It is the equivalent of perma-Chameleon in Oblivion. Couple that with the fact that skills synergize so well with Sneak and you get crazy multipliers that kill most enemies in a single hit. Considering how encounters occur also, Sneak becomes infinitely more powerful. Enemies almost always have their backs to you in a room line of sight of a doorway, or are standing still right out in the open with giant "free kill" signs over their heads. It isn't often you encounter more than 2 enemies at a time, and even two enemies at a time is pretty scarce. By the time the second enemy even realizes their buddy is dead, you can usually get the drop on them. This is especially true if you are ranged.

If you get the Muffle Enchant or double up Sneak Enchants you will be permanently invisible with perks. It does take a lot of fun and strategy out of the game as you can ALWAYS get the drop on enemies. Rarely will you ever run into a situation that due to multiple targets the enemies will spot you after you killed 1 or 2 targets. If this happens, you just derp it up and sprint away using Shadow Warrior and eventually will pop back into Stealth.

So is Sneaking "overpowered?" Heck yes it is. Sneaking trivializes the game and if anyone else tells you otherwise they are morons...but it can be fun being overpowered.

/That is all.

Crouching down in front of someone and not being detected then standing up and instantly being detected does not make you sneaky. It makes a flawed system. It is the same way in the Fallout games, sneak right through a group of people, almost touching hands, they don't detect you. I am sorry but that is not being sneaky.

Perhaps, but let's take destruction for instance. For destruction to be on par with you "master" anolysis of how skills work, I should be able to walk into a room, start casting my firestorm, and if successful, should be almost clearing that room out. Instead, everything loses 1/10 of their health as if I just cast cuddly kitten storm. The simple fact is, not everything is overpowered, certainly not how sneak is, and to say so is just silly. I'm not complaining, I would rather be stuck trying to make something a little more challenging work than walking through the middle of well lit rooms one-shoting everyone in my path, but it kinda glaring that not everything is as good as sneak is.

I definitely agree that I wish corpse dragging actually had a place in this game. That detection mechanic that was discussed earlier in the thread is brilliant.

Key point here. But you don't have to put perks into it. So you don't need to avoid it.

Sneak at 100 without perks = good, not game-breaking

Is the quote-unquote overpowered nature of Sneak affected by whether or not you increase the core perk?

I think the first time you improve it it makes you 20% harder to detect while sneaking (1/5) and if you improve it all the way (5/5) you are 40% harder to detect. So, if you never put a perk in sneak, or just 1 in that perk and no more, is that as overpowered as when it's at 5/5?

Just wondering.

Interesting. Is anyone from Bethesda reading this? Is there any intention to nerf Sneak? Any other balancing updates in the works?

Ah, you sort of answered my question as I was typing it. However, can you (or someone else) answer my specific quesiton: is 1/5 of the core perk (20% harder to detect) considered "overpowered" also?

I realize the answer will be somewhat subjective, but I'm just curious to see what people think. Thanks.

I think this discussion is a losing battle either way. Some people just want sneak = invisible and that is how they define it, whereas others want it to be what it is- sneaking around, but actually still reflecting light off of your body when applicable. The beauty of Skyrim is that it is what you make it, so play however ya want and if they patch things and make them more realistic, so be it.

I'm interested too, and to hear what peoples experience is with a high sneak level with no perks. Someone mentioned 100 sneak with no perks. Could you elaborate a bit?
Thanks

I have exactly 1 perk (the first one so 1/5) put into sneaking. I still get occasionally detected, especially outside in the sunlight. It matches pretty well what I personally would expect out of it and isn't anywhere near the equivalent of the 100% camoflague that broke Oblivion. I don't even consider it overpowered in the sense that it makes everything else useless. I can sneak through most of a Nord barrow without waking up draughr that are asleep but the ones that are awake, I generally have to deal with.

I'd be careful saying that.
I was playing with a stealthy character having sneak on 100, and it is indeed true that you kill even the most badass enemies in one single hit. However, once they see you, you are pretty much [censored]. That said, it's not really overpowered, because you need to remain unnoticed and some enemies won't let that happen.

They won't nerf it. The entire game is out of control. It isn't just Sneak. You Perk out Smithing and can upgrade items to ridiculous numbers and reach the Armor cap. You Perk out Enchanting and your damage (with melee) is so high you one shot anything in the game. You Perk out Enchanting and can make 2 spell schools ENTIRELY FREE TO CAST. You Perk out Destruction and can completely lockdown targets with Stagger. You Perk out Conjuration and send two perma-Dremora to run around killing EVERYTHING without so much as lifting a finger. Perk out 1H and get some EASY to get gloves and now you are assassinating targets in a hit. Sneaking makes you completely invisible.

The fact is that you do not need to exploit to do any of this. Obtaining any of this is not even remotely difficult. The only way to achieve a happy medium is to GIMP YOURSELF and INTENTIONALLY NOT TAKE PERKS OR UPGRADE YOUR ARMOR/WEAPONS.

That doesn't help when the AI is freaking horrible, encounter placement and frequency is out of touch, pathing is a joke, and combat mechanics are shallow.

It really is suprising how much good press the game gets. Yes, it is a wide open game - however - the core game itself is severely lacking and quite truly it isn't that hard to salvage it, it's just that the general consensus at least on these forums is "I am a lorenerd RPER and it is fine because I practice self control and the game is more about progression and gameplay!"

If enemies see you this is what you do.

1.) Turn around, Sprint.
2.) If varying levels of terrain are nearby, step off or onto it. (Congratulations enemy pathing is destroyed)
3.) If no varying levels of terrain are nearby, try to line of sight. (Crouch and re-enter Stealth)
4.) If you have Shadow Warrior Perk, just run back a bit and crouch back into Stealth and laugh.

If spotted you are somehow dying or choosing to stand there and fight, you chose poorly.

Ouch. Carrotfeets, just curious if you still enjoy the game? I've always found Bethesda's code to be a bit loose in all their games, but you bring up some serious issues here.

Do not understand, have over 90 in sneak, yes you can always get the sneak attack with bows, and melee if not in daylight and in front, however once you hit they start searching, if less than 5 meters away they will find you.
Undead are more unaware but not so much as in Oblivion where you could stand and shoot at them until they died at three meter range.

Main benefit in Skyrim is that base damage on weapons is higher so the enemies goes down faster, this enables you to shoot down multiple enemies before they finds you.

Has not taken the master perk who enables you do get into stealth again if discovered, if it blanks everybody memory of you it's overpowered.

Sneak fully perked out at 100 is pretty much invisibility, but not quite. In broad daylight you will be detected if you stand in front of someone. It is not as bad as oblivion's chameleon, where you can sneak attack a guy in front of him, and two seconds later he forgets you are there. If you attack, you break your sneak. Yes, you can walk past just about anyone, and with archery it can become a little easy, but I don't find any issues with it currently. I never take the final perk though, as this seems a little bit too much.

This is because destruction is underpowered because the lack of spellmaking, weapon damage is much higher, with the sneak bonus you can kill enemies in 1-3 hits, in Oblivion you could kill npc in one hit with sneak.

I enjoy it in sittings, but because of how powerful I am and because I know there is no reason for me to ever loot a chest or body because I know I will never find an upgrade and the fact that even advancing and taking Perks no longer matters because it is just overkill from this point is pretty depressing. I have no desire to reroll and do it all over again. I have no desire to gimp myself and work against the nature of RPGs. I am looking forward to the CK, that is the only reason why I did not stop playing sooner. For the most part, I feel the story is shallow and unengaging since Dialog options and character choices do not have much of a impact or matter. People call me a pessemist, but I am really just sick and tired of how aweful games are now. They spend countless hours pouring into voice acting and small little details and the core of the game is just...shallow.

With that said, the game itself is a soild concept. Much of it needs to be tweaked. You can correct things like poor enemy pathing, you just need enemies to either teleport, gate you, or have a ranged attack (or both) always. Combat mechanics need a lot of work and Sneak needs to be re evaluated. In almost all games, Stealth is overpowered, that is just the nature of it however. Enemy population and spawn encounter frequency need a slider option and difficulty options need to be included for the player to use. Enemy scaling should continue post 50 and items should not be static in value to offer true progression.

By the time they start searching, I have already killed the other 1 or 2 enemies in the room. It is rare that there are ever more than 1 enemy in the room, and most of the time it is only 1 add in the encounter that will come looking. Lots of enemies start off sitting or have to follow some crazy path to get to you. It does not even matter if I miss an arrow shot they go look where the arrow landed, not where it originated from which actually makes it easier for me to kill stuff which is funny. Yes, I can be right next to something kill it and have a mob see me. Does this matter? NO. I just run away and go back into Sneak. Enemies can never catch me or hit me ever.

My new toon is a stealthy type but she'll be using illusion magic as her method of avoiding detection. My first character used sneak and while I don't think its OP by any stretch, it does eventually get a bit boring. Earlier on, you are hard pressed to sneak on anyone even with perks. Right now, my lvl 18 toon using muffle has an extremely hard time sneaking up on anyone without them turning around.