If you're doing more damage per second with weapons than you are with fully perked destruction then you're also heavily using enchanting and smithing. Or a sneak attack.

10 - 12 hits a creature, then you're clearly talking about master difficulty on some very high level monsters. Or you're using the wrong damage type for the monster. Same deal here, if you're killing those same monsters faster with weapons (non-sneak) then you're heavily using smithing and enchanting. If you kill those same enemies MUCH faster, then you're clearly exploiting the crafting system synergies to unbalanced levels.

Despite the lack of self-discipline in a single player video game, why on earth would you discuss balance concerning master difficulty?
Master difficulty isn't balanced.. you do half damage and take double.

Enchanting is a very smart choice for a destruction make. It is the equivalent of smithing for weapons.

You just identified the side effect of the problem, even without admitting it. Exactly as in the quote, Its strong on easy, and weak on master. Its a SET damage, it cannot be balanced at all. Please dont tell me "just cast some more". Everyone else will be killing the next mob in that time. Its not like its a new approach. Diablo 2 tried to go the same route, "scaling" Lightning skill tree by reducing casting costs with more invested skillpoints. It failed miserably. There are too many factors making low continuous damage stream not work, assuming exploited enchanted zero cost magic. Blizzard changed it to scale damage after a patch or two. And Blizzard knows about balancing games.(i dont know what else to say. Destuction fans still not getting the actual problem.)

The assumption of most of the arguments is that unimproved destruction is weaker than highly improved and enhanced melee...simply because those improvements and enhancements are possible. Of course it is...but apples weigh less than watermelons, too.

I would argue that the real problem is that people are expecting master difficulty to be balanced.
When you change the difficulty from normal to master, you should accept that the game will be harder, that things will take twice as long to kill, and that you'll die faster.
You should not assume that master difficulty will be custom tailored to the liking of every wannabe system designer out there.

I agree about master. It makes the game harder strictly by unbalancing damage. If it added better enemy AI or more enemies it would be much more attractive.

This game is about the experience...and casting chain lightning 5 times to take out a mid-range bandit(highwayan-318 hp) can really take most players out of the experience of being a powerful mage. The fact that 5 casts requires an unreasonable amount of magicka for the majority of players with non-optimized players is only a secondary concern. My concern is primarily satisfaction in roleplaying...something the Elder Scrolls series generally does very well and I hope continues to do so.You can feel like a powerful conjurer or swordsman and these skills do not hamper the progress of others(and that is fantastic)...but destruction's usefulness dwindles under most circumstances(less than 50% cost reduction at high levels) and that should never happen if the skill functioned properly. Besides, if destruction enchants are mandatory for a mage they loose a degree of freedom in customizing their gear through enchanting. Magicka, health and resists are all set aside as possibilities for this "master stat".

Personally I think destruction is fine the way it is. With the augmented perks along with the dual casting/impact perks I have no problem being a powerful destruction mage by dual casting incinerate. Then you add on enchanting with the dual enchantment perk, enchant a hood, robe necklace and ring with cost reduction of both destruction and alteration and I am untouchable.

I don't really understand why people think that you should be able to be a powerul mage with only one skill.

Because the game isn't hard, can be exploited, and there are skills available to mages that don't svck. You also seem to be the kind of person who likes to overcome self set challenges and you view the limitations of the game in a different light than others. That said, I don't see how bringing destruction to where it can compete with the efficiency of other offensive skills will detract from the experience. You will simply see the stagger animation from impact a bit less. For me, that goes a long way...

I didn′t read the whole thread, but I have to disagree with My3rdEYE. Destruction relyes now heavily on dualcasting and the correct use of the elemental spells. While some Adept and most higher level spells are usually rather expensive and VERY situational, if not to say useless, you can play quite effective with mid-tier spells like "Fireball" or "Firebolt".
Just get four pieces of armor with "Fortify Destruction 25%", resulting in 0 manacost and the impact Perk. I suggest you use the spell "Firebolt" for its AOE damage and spam it. You don′t even have to aim...

I feel you have misunderstood me nearly completely, Raliel, Not only are destruction enchants convenient, they are pretty much required for destruction to be used. However using these enchants does nothing for damage output and makes destruction exceeded by ever other offensive skill. The merit of a skill(or gameplay as a whole) cannot be judged by "viability" alone. There is a disconnect between destruction and the rest of the game. I highly doubt the developers intended for the destruction skill to have to be "babysat" by obstinate gamers who are knowledgeable enough to manipulate the enchanting mechanic into a very specific method of play. Without scaling to make varying effects granted by the skill viable, it is an inferior mode of damage, nothing more.

Spells require a close proximity to function as well. Granted, it's not nearly as short as that of a blade, but I've never been in a situation where it would be impractical to use my blade over my spells for this reason only.

Didn't read the whole topic, just the first page and about half of the second, but what about just adding new spells? How about having a master level target spell, an expert level AoE spell, and an adept level target spell? I dunno im just spitballing here, haha. Like somenoe said they aren't going to change the gameplay mechanics, but new spells and the like aren't out of the realm of possibility. I mean this doesn't absolutely need to happen, but a slight destruction boost would be great, and would make playing a pure destruction mage feasible, even swapping the old spells out for more powerful versions of themselve? even if only slightly more powerful. doubtful though, haha

Your last statement is exactly the issue...people do think that being a one skill spell caster should allow them to succeed in the game, and the basis of their argument is comparisons with playing styles that rely on a combination of a range of skills.

The fact is, that ain't the way the game is designed, and it ain't never going to change (unless you mod it).

Edit:

Just to upset the apple cart a bit further, yesterday I was testing the Master level Lightning Storm spell. From what I could see, it has the longest range of any spell or weapon in the game, about 5 times or more longer than the chain lightning range. I was frazzling opponents before they even got halfway to me, and I was severely zapping dragons in mid-air...in fact, I killed several dragons without taking a hit, and without even getting into range of their shouts.

Whichever way you view it, that sort of power is far beyond anything that any melee weapon can do...total stand-off annihilation. Sure, it was on expert, rather than Master, but that highlights the point people have made about lowering the difficulty to one which actually matches your playing style.

I don't believe they intend to add new spells, at least not anytime soon. they actually have a good assortment of spells and effects in game already, it's just a shame they don't retain their usefulness at higher levels and ultimately become irrelevant. When we are forced to use Incinerate/Thunderbolt/Icy Spear,100% cost reduction and nothing else destruction becomes a restrictive form of archery. I'm personally more upset about the ultimate ineffectiveness of sparks/flames than anything else...especially since these effects were intended to replace spell creation and diversify destruction. Proper scaling could easily remedy this.

I think your right. Illusion is the best in my opinion. Alteration is after Conjuration, which is the second best. The rest are ish.

Detect Life, Equilibrium, Telekenesis, Muffle, Invisibility, Close Wounds, Conjure Storm Atronach, Transfusion, and Detect Dead are all i need

No, just like two handed or archery are offensive skills, destruction is for killing things. Sure it has range, but defense and crafting are too good to pass up. Its the same with a warrior. A pure Destruction mage would easily find himself mauled by a tiger without alteration or armor(in fact alteration is the most inconvenient form of defense as well as the least effective for the majority of the game). There is no reason to restrict mages to pitiful damage. I honestly believe destruction's impotence was mostly a design oversight by looking at the way other skills are balanced.

Something just occurred to me, if destruction requires extensive cost reduction to kill a leveled enemy, why don't other magic schools require the same dedication to function for the duration of a fight? Flesh spells and astronachs will easily last you most encounters just using a modest magicka pool and relevent perks.

I have this to say, from my play time on my 3 main characters all in the low 40's.

my sword and board Nord character put every single lvl up into health. I dont need stamina to win, nor magicka. I have a set of Daedric armor and I got the spell breaker shield. I have the "ideal" 80% dmg res. With my elemental resist(shield perk, race bonus to frost, spellbreaker ward) magic is not really dangerous, and with my single enchanted ring that adds 30% HP regen, I can withstand the attacks of the entire population of solitude-WITHOUT BLOCKING. I just fought Alduin last night. i didnt need a heal potion. i didnt block, I just attacked him with standard attacks with dragonbane. I did not have to rest, use a potion, heal, whatever through the entire dragon temple fighting draugr deathlords multiples at once, I didnt do anything really, i just walked through the place and stabbed zombie guys until the one floaty one gaurding the portal was dead. then i went in the portal and walked around in there until Alduin was dead. Important to note: I did not use the hackz alchemy/enchanting cheats to make this character. my smithing is 100 because I enjoyed it, and wanted to see the dragon armor. I used my 100 smithing skill and a +30% smithing potion I found in some dungeon on top of some +15% elven gauntlets i found at like lvl 15 to make my gear upgrades. my enchanting skill is only in the low 40's, and only there do to XP gain from disenchant. None of my armor has an enchantment yet, nor my daedric sword. I will probably retire this guy soon from bordom.

My two handed weopon Orc. started out...pretty easy. A power attack from even an iron battle ax is some potent stuff at low lvls. he is not as invincible as my nord, mostly from magic as he has no real resistance to it. but it doesnt matter. if I find a situation where I might take significant dmg from spells, I can use berserk. This situation comes up maybe once a dungeon from some boss mage. put almost all lvl up into health again, with like 2 into stamina. He is wearing steel plate yet as i havent felt the need to upgrade his armor even though I could make a set of daedric for him. I did make a daedric warhammer for him in the last few levels. before that, and for most of his career I used Valendrung. you know, the weopon that fills your stamina bar up with ever hit so you can power attack like 20 times in a row. true story, with the dadric warhammer equiped I was attacked by a standard "normal" dragon. it flew over and did a firebreath on me. Then it landed up the path like 20 feet ahead of me. i used elemental fury, then used orc berserk. i killed it with 2 power attacks and 2 normal attacks. it got to attack once on the ground, but died before it finished its firebreath. Again, no enchanting or alchemy tricks on this guy. just some nord steel plate gauntlets of +17% smithing and a potion of +40% smithing to upgrade his steel plate and warhammers.

My mage character. started out ok, I made him an altmer for the bonus magicka. I find the first tier spells the most entertaining, though by lvl 15 or so they had shown there age even with dual casting and I had to move on to firebolts. I can not keep his magicka bar full enough to finish a fight. I have not used the enchanting stuff, though it is on my list to do soon as I recently started to make use of fireballs and such more and have found myself spending more time drinking magicka potions then casting. Spells are fun. Runnig away all the time and not having enough magicka to throw more then 5 spells dual cast is not so fun. Put 75% of lvl up into magicka and the other 25% into HP.My biggest beefs:

1- why the hell does my magicka not regenerate in a fight? worse= my enemies magicka does!! WTF HACKZ. Epic mage shootout!! I cast 7 firebolts...spent! opponant"Challenge accepted!!" throws icebolts out of both hands left and right till I lose count. I die. LOAD ok I will try electrcity....ZZZTZZZT ZAP!! take that!! LOLWUT how come he can keep casting ice storms and ice bolts non stop!! i should have dmged like 200 magicka from him? Oh thats right he regens magicka while casting. Me: magicka doesnt regen in combat. magicka doesnt regen AT ALL while holding a spell to charge and aim. magicka regen perks+magicka regen equipment and potions = total fail because it is neutered in combat and 100% halted while casting. higher magicka point totals and enchantments appear to be the only way to keep from burning out.

2. I have this dagger- I found it in a ruin. It is cool looking, makes me feel tough, you know like those barbarian guys sorta. Sure they have those giant swords and hammers, but I like the finesse from this dagger. the best part? Man, I enchanted it with this fire dmg, does 25 points of dmg per strike. i used a black soul gem i found in this necromancer den(shh dont tell the archmagister...oh wait thats me) so it has a lot of charges. i am not really skilled at one handed(21) but i can swing this thing fast. it only does like 12 dmg on it's own, but that doesnt matter! it adds 25 points of fire dmg too, so really it does 37 dmg, and man, that adds up crazy fast when i use elemental fury on myself. So, you know after I cast like 3 dual cast ice storms and run out of magicka to fight that other guy with, I just pull this little shiny guy out and go slice him up! Who knew being a mostly totally unskilled bladesman would give me the potential to totally outdo my own spells that i have focused my whole career on!! Just imagine if I had learned about this dagger thing a long time ago and actually had some skill in it? You know I use these supporting skills on myself, like alchemy potions and enchanting my gear to reduce my cast costs and make this dagger. I wonder what would happen if that barbarian guy did the same thing i did and enchanted his giant Daedric hammer and put any manner of resistance or attribute bonuses or weopon dmg bonus on his gear? I bet he would be a god!! Note to self: inquire around town and find someone to train me in armor and swordplay.

To say the least, I have found my mage to be a let down after battleing these bolt flinging dmg powerhouse NPC guys on my smashhead armor types. Maybe if they let the players use the "cheat" mechanics the NPC gets for magicka regen and whatnot my mage would be more entertaining. I dont want more dmg really, but it sure would be nice to have a use for my favorite spell effects(basic flamethrower hands and runes) as I level up and be able to fight more then one foe without having to enchant my gear to do it.

This. Its pretty common knowledge by very popularity of mods that players polish the game in far better ways than the designers. And that's not a bad thing. Spell creation was just one more tool players had at their disposal to do just that (the only tool if you are on console).