I'm only about 20 minutes in but I can say this:

If this guy reminds you of you...then the game then you're the reason why games are dumbed down.

That said, I still love the game and I think it's a little of both. Dumbed down and streamlined.

Does that mean I wish it was more like Morrowind,......in a way yes. As I said though, I love the game.

Right and chemeleon was overpowered *sarcasm*. Stop supporting the removal of stuff like a really devoted fan..Thats the mentality that got spell creation cut.

you blamed +5 grinding on Attributes on the previous post and now you blame the players for their plight in trying to play the way they want to. case and point? Attributes didn't cause people problems.

I propose a return to Daggerfall's leveling system with, instead of the variable 4-6 attribute points to be freely spent per level a solid, static number of freely distributable attribute points, instead, and tighter formulas for increased health per level. From there, they could tweak it with perks, choice of health/magicka/stamina increases, removal of set classes, etc. or whatever, but that leveling system with a character creation system as in-depth as Daggerfall's making up the base, we'd have a nearly perfect system, in my opinion.

I'd support that as well as anything that does Attributes differently from what it was since Morrowind, Skyrim didnt do anything different Skills function EXACTLY the same and Attributes got cut, thats not streamlining, Streamlining infers you can do everything you could in the past but easier, that isn't the case in Skyrim there are many things you can no longer do, run faster, jump higher, become stronger, etc etc

Attributes are not superior, look at Oblivion what did attributes do in that game, nothing at all. Everybody ended up at 100 attributes unless you gamed the system and stopped leveling at 20-30.

And all 10-15 characters would have the same problem, they all got to 100 in attributes. If I wanted to specialize a character how am I suppose to do that, by gaming the system or putting +1 in luck. I think the game would be better off if my choices matter at level up and Skyrim fills that role perfectly. Sure I only have 3 choices at levelup but I have almost 150+ choices of perks if not more that I could choose. Many more choices then the previous system ever offered me.

Attributes do cause problems if they aren't put in the right system, especially if the system that they are set in don't work with the current skills. I'd be all for a Fallout 3/New Vegas type attribute system where the attributes were static, didn't change over the duration of the game, and partially affected the skills but that's not going to happen because too many people would complain that they are putting too much fallout in our Elder Scrolls.

I miss the attributes, but just hate how anything post-Daggerfall has handled things. Skyrim is just too restricting and Morrowind/Oblivion had severe flaws with that "efficient leveling" thing. Now Daggerfall... that was a relatively passive, yet deep, system.

Whelp time the toot the ol mantra, Maybe in TESIV.

if you have any other "its the games fault i svck" arguments i could use another good laugh or two.

So basically it was 3 stats 100 2 stats 50-75 1 stat 50 and then it's down to personality and luck which were useless. I don't know if I could blame attributes for 100% of Oblivion's problems, more efficient leveling then anything but it's still has the same problem. Unless you focused on Strength or Endurance you wouldn't survive or do well. Skyrim thankfully puts that factor into your skills and perks, not Health, Stamina, or Magicka although those 3 are still important.

I think that was just you, I had 4 or so characters in oblivion over the course of 600+ hours with that game and almost never increased my minor skills. I walked everyone in that game even at higher levels.

That's because you focused on skills that made you stronger. Blade being used over and over again as a major and with Strength increasing the damage yeah you'll beat most enemies in that game, helps even more if you have an enchanted weapon like Umbra or Goldbrand dishing out damage. Same would go for Destruction, even more so if you focused on it and had enough magic potions to destroy any enemy in your path with Electrocution.

TES lore master...

nope not even close. you need to go back and figure out how the system worked because you still don't understand it at the current time.

Because he dosent seem to have any major problems and despite not knowing what the heck he is doing still succeeds by randomly
hitting at things, widly pushing buttons and following the arrow you mean ... ? ...
Yes, a clear sign that this game is 4 teh pr0s only I must admit.

Attributes are supperior. Oblivion was just fine. Stoo being a really devoted fan.

I wish I had something more constructive to say with my first ever post but I think all the TES games have flaws.
For a good deal of us, we love to try and break the game (even though it kinda ruins it)
Time and time again it seems the old school want the old system(s) back .. or something similair.
now come on ye olde school guys. If the system was the same, you would go and do the old exploits again.

I think perhaps the old TES players are sore because they cant spend hours trying to enchant that one awesome item,or create that spell that will be game changing (Breaking,in other words)
Some of that crowd dont recall how many times they re-loaded their save because they failed enchanting that uber item.
Well, its not like that now.And thank Bethesda for that, it was for you the gamer after all.

I've said all this in defense of the new system, I can see what they are trying to do.

But deep inside I cry, I mourn the loss of a series. I play Skyrim yes, I like it. But I dont spend my time away from the game thinking about what I'm going to do next. When I play, I follow an arrow without even knowing what i'm doing cos it doesnt matter AND because the story has not engaged me at all.
...Maybe I played the other games to death and thats my real problem. I just don't see it getting any better.

Sorry for the ramble, its late here.

I can say this though, there will be no pre-order on the next Bethesda title.

There is no difference. It all ends up meaning one thing to Devs. Whether the semantics of the actual definitions are explained or not. When you hear either, your in for cutting and more hand holding.

For some reason I feel the need to point out, yet again, that while streamlining can be done to dumb things down, it's but one tool in the shed. You can dumb things down many ways, so let's not pretend streamlining and dumbing down are identical or even part of any 'this or that but not both.'

I don't know.

But "dumbed down" sounds like something this idiotic society would come up with.

Wrong thread.

my (censored) is streamlined

Dumbing down is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pejorative term for a perceived trend to lower the intellectual content of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literature, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News, and other aspects of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture. According to John Algeo, former editor of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Speech, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neologism dumb down meaning "revise so as to appeal to those of little education or intelligence" was first recorded in 1933 as movie slang.^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumbing_down#cite_note-0}
Dumbing down can point to a variety of different situations, but the concept always involves a claim about the simplification of culture, education and thought; a decline in creativity and innovation; a degradation of artistic, cultural and intellectual standards, or the undermining of the very idea of a standard; and the trivialization of cultural, artistic and academic creations.

Ok, it's from Wikipedia, but still....first coined in 1933.

Uldred

P.S.: My favorite: To http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/become http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/simpler in http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/expression or http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/content; to become http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/unacceptably http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/simplistic.

for all of you guys saying skills are better guess what? skills were the FLAW in the old leveling system. the problem with the old leveling system was that you got perks for every skill, not just your major ones.

Man that guy is stupid. Everything he conplained about in the first 30 minutes was common senses.