The most sensible in-game position on the civil war...

Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:42 am

The process isn't "corrupted" by Imperial influence. As part of the Empire Imperial law and Imperial process is very valid. Those in charge chose to work with the Empire and play by their rules. And when the rebellion happened, half of Skyrim demonstrated that it'd rather remain with the Empire than side with Ulfric.
It is. Naturally, those who believe the empire has a right to interfere heavily don't consider this a problem.

This is reflected in the in-game book http://www.imperial-library.info/content/skyrims-rule.

The High King is ruler above all, and is always one of the Jarls, selected by a body called the "Moot" - a specially convened council of all the Jarls, who meet with the express purpose of choosing Skyrim's High King. Or so it is, in theory.

The reality, however, is that the High King swears fealty to the Emperor, and as Solitude is the city most directly influenced by Imperial culture and politics, the Jarl of Solitude has served as High King for generations. The Moot, therefore, is more formality and theater than anything else.

But as I prepared to leave Skyrim, I could feel a change in the air, sense the trepidation of some of the good Nord people. Many seemed unhappy with the Empire's continued presence in their land. And the outlawing of the worship of Talos as the Ninth Divine - a stipulation of the White-Gold Concordat, the peace treaty between the Empire and Aldmeri Dominion - has only strengthened that division.

So while the Jarls of Skyrim still control their holds, and those Jarls are ruled over by their Imperial-sanctioned High King, will there come a day when the Moot convenes to select a new High King - one that is not, as many would say, the Emperor's "Solitude puppet"?

If that day comes, I will be thankful to be far away from Skyrim, in my own home of Hammerfell. For such a decision could well mean civil war, and I fear that such a conflict would tear the fierce and beautiful Nord people asunder.
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Riky Carrasco
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:00 am

Given he had been contacted by the Thalmor prior to the incident, and that The Bear of Markarth states that he demanded the Empire give in to his demands, I suspect it was him who insisted on it. And don't tell me that "it must be completely false because it's propaganda".
It's false because Igmund says it is.
"We promised a group of Nord militia free worship in exchange for their help retaking the Hold"

Note how he doesn't say "We promised a group of Nord militia free worship for returning the hold", or "We gave in to the demands of a group of Nord militia"?

The process isn't "corrupted" by Imperial influence. As part of the Empire Imperial law and Imperial process is very valid. Those in charge chose to work with the Empire and play by their rules. And when the rebellion happened, half of Skyrim demonstrated that it'd rather remain with the Empire than side with Ulfric.
Oh indeed, I remember Igmund and co going to jail too for breaking imperial law.
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Ronald
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:18 am

While an army of mages sounds great on paper, it's only effective for short periods of time/ambushes/etc. (Normal mages can't cast hundreds to thousands of lightning bolts and fireballs casually like the Dovahkiin can)
The pivotal strategy of the Thalmor was surprise, the Empire simply wasn't prepared to fight a war when the Thalmor showed up (The Thalmor are also great at propaganda, they seem stronger than they really are).
To use an earlier example, a thousand mages casting a wall of fire might be incredible -for 10 to 15 seconds- until the entire army of mages has no magicka, and if they didn't manage to kill the entire enemy force in a single blow they're forced to retreat, switch to weapons, or get cut down (I imagine a giant wall of fire to have terrible side effects, such as uncontrollable wildfires and massive deforestation, so it isn't the best strategy if you want to be able to predictably advance or retreat).

I would support the Empire, simply because they have the potential to defeat the elves. The Stormcloaks might be able to free themselves temporarily, but they would need an act of Talos to defeat the Aldmeri Dominion outright.
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Unstoppable Judge
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:08 am

It's false because Igmund says it is.
"We promised a group of Nord militia free worship in exchange for their help retaking the Hold"

Note how he doesn't say "We promised a group of Nord militia free worship for returning the hold", or "We gave in to the demands of a group of Nord militia"?
One can still promise someone something without having been the one to make the initial offer. And as I've said, it is outright said that he demanded it from the Empire and they gave in to the demand. And we both know the Thalmor were watching and in contact with him since before anyone made any deal.

Oh indeed, I remember Igmund and co going to jail too for breaking imperial law.
That's because the Thalmor didn't make a big deal about Igmund or demand him to be arrested.
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Jennifer May
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:45 am

I think it's kind of funny that some people claim to support the Thalmor/AD... If you play Skyrim long enough... you WILL fight them. If you try to speak with them they're hostile. So, I see these people/characters as totally delusional. "For the Aldmeri Dominion!" The ones who just tried to kill you?

Obviously, you can support that side, but the game doesn't really let you.

On topic. The stormcloaks are divisive. The empire needs to stay united, if it hopes to muster enough strength to oust the elven dogs. The empire needed to buy some time to recover.

Some say that the stormcloaks, united with other provinces, can stand against the elves. That's the empire 2.0. Again, Talos worship wasn't an issue (it was done in secret), until ulfric drew so much attention to it and attracted the elves. Good job. Ulfric's efforts undermine humanity, ultimately. Fail diva is fail.
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Vicky Keeler
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:29 am

The empire needs to stay united, ...


There hasnt been a united empire in many years.
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ruCkii
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:43 pm

One can still promise someone something without having been the one to make the initial offer. And as I've said, it is outright said that he demanded it from the Empire and they gave in to the demand. And we both know the Thalmor were watching and in contact with him since before anyone made any deal.

Do quote this person that says Ulfric demanded free worship from the empire.

I'd recommend you don't use a book written by a guy who wasn't there and doesn't show any hint at having actually investigated at all.
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Beth Belcher
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:40 am

You haven't played the Stormcloak questline. Ulfric Stormcloak very well knows the threat of the elves.

How are the Thalmor convincing Skyrim to destroy the Empire? The Stormcloaks aren't waging an invasion war against Cyrodiil, they're fighting the Empire's presence in Skyrim. It would be very hard for an Altmer to convince Ulfric anything.

Neither the Stormcloaks or Ulfric are racist. The Dunmer in Windhelm live in the 'poor district' of Windhelm. They do not have to pay for housing or taxes, they are there for free. The Nords that used to live in the Snow Quarter were most likely evicted. Jarl Ulfric doesn't help the Dunmer because:

1. He is planning a war. Throughout history, wars have averted the focus on reform (see the Progressive Era of America).

2. The Dunmer do not do anything to help in the war effort.

In addition, most of the Elves in Windhelm are successful - Revyn Saadri, Ulundil, Niranye, Belyn Hlaalu, Suvaris Atheron and a few more. There's only about two that actually complain - Malthyr and Ambarys (I think), and they spend all day skulking around the New Gnisis Cornerclub. Most people are sick of them, that includes the other Mer in the city.

Ulfric is a Nord Nationalist, not a genocidal tyrant.

I have played both campaigns, and although the Empire isn't completely good, they're certainly better than the Stormcloaks. The Stormcloaks aren't genocidical. but they certainly are racist, as Brunwulf Free-Winter will tell you, like about the raiding bandits. Apparently, Ulfric doens't defend outlanders. I know he's biased, but even his biased view has a truth in it. You also cannot verify that the Dunmer in Windhelm are living there for free. Sure, they were 'invited' by the High King after the eruption of the Red Mountain, but that was nearly 200 years ago, and it seems a bit implausible that they're living there on Skyrim's cost for two centuries. And Argonians aren't even allowed in the city.
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Manny(BAKE)
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:18 pm

There hasnt been a united empire in many years.
Umm, since when isn't there an empire? I'm pretty sure it still exists (Cyrodil, Hammerfell, and High Rock, right?? And Skyrim.... kind of...). And since Valenwood, Summerset, and Catpark have turned, it's important for what remains of the empire to stay united.
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Marina Leigh
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:46 pm

Umm, since when isn't there an empire? I'm pretty sure it still exists (Cyrodil, Hammerfell, and High Rock, right?? And Skyrim.... kind of...). And since Valenwood, Summerset, and Catpark have turned, it's important for what remains of the empire to stay united.
Hammerfell is no longer a part of it. However I agree about what remains needs to be united. Yes it'll be hard to reconcile with Hammerfell, but I figure it'd be no harder (possibly easier) than Ulfric reconciling with Cyrodiil.
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Assumptah George
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:46 am

There hasnt been a united empire in many years.
Umm, since when isn't there an empire?

The empire started out with 8 provinces plus cyrodiil (cyrodiil isnt a province). They are down to 1.5 now. Talk of a "united empire" is wishful thinking. Ever wonder why so many have already left?
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Laura-Jayne Lee
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:04 am

Talk about the empire "biding its time till it can rebuild" is wishful thinking. The WGC doesnt make the empire stronger, it makes it weaker. It allows the Thalmor to
1. Travel freely in Skyrim and presumably cyrodiil gathering intel.
2. Demand suspected talos worshippers be handed over to be tortured till they confess.
3. Sit in on meetings.
4. Bribe Jarls and the wealth class with chests of gold, parties, and insider trade agreements which further cements their political control.

The longer the empire "bides its time" the stronger the Thalmor position.
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Eileen Müller
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:40 am

Talk about the empire "biding its time till it can rebuild" is wishful thinking. The WGC doesnt make the empire stronger, it makes it weaker. It allows the Thalmor to
1. Travel freely in Skyrim and presumably cyrodiil gathering intel.
2. Demand suspected talos worshippers be handed over to be tortured till they confess.
3. Sit in on meetings.
4. Bribe Jarls and the wealth class with chests of gold, parties, and insider trade agreements which further cements their political control.

The longer the empire "bides its time" the stronger the Thalmor position.
And saying the Stormcloaks will ally with Hammerfell and the provinces, and their ragtag alliance will defeat the Thalmor isn't wishful thinking? Especially when it's led by someone whom the Thalmor have masterfully manipulated in the past?

And the Redguards never kicked the Dominion out, they fought them to a standstill and the Thalmor eventually agreed to withdraw.
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Jade Muggeridge
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:14 am

The empire started out with 8 provinces plus cyrodiil (cyrodiil isnt a province). They are down to 1.5 now. Talk of a "united empire" is wishful thinking. Ever wonder why so many have already left?
We'll just unite it again. It isn't as hard as it sounds.

And I seem to recall a certain Dominion and a somewhat obscure Daedra invasion coercing provinces out of the Empire...

A miracle it's still intact after all that, really.
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Lori Joe
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:59 pm

We'll just unite it again. It isn't as hard as it sounds.

Good luck convincing the Argonians and the Hist.
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Adam Porter
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:17 am

Since I see a few people bringing up Torygg...
Spoiler
You can actually meet him in Sovngarde. He doesn't have much dialogue, but he does mention the duel. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Torygg

(Normal mages can't cast hundreds to thousands of lightning bolts and fireballs casually like the Dovahkiin can)
You've clearly never fought an NPC mage. :tongue: They have no limit on their magicka.

Talk about the empire "biding its time till it can rebuild" is wishful thinking. The WGC doesnt make the empire stronger, it makes it weaker. It allows the Thalmor to
1. Travel freely in Skyrim and presumably cyrodiil gathering intel.
Travel freely and, because they have no problems announcing who they are both by wearing gaudy golden armor and blatantly telling people "I'm a THALMOR, gtfo peasant!", make themselves prime targets for bandits/Stormcloaks/basically anyone who hates Thalmor and has the sense to wait until no one's looking to introduce their war axe/sword/arrows to their faces.
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herrade
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:28 am

And saying the Stormcloaks will ally with Hammerfell and the provinces, and their ragtag alliance will defeat the Thalmor isn't wishful thinking? Especially when it's led by someone whom the Thalmor have masterfully manipulated in the past?

And the Redguards never kicked the Dominion out, they fought them to a standstill and the Thalmor eventually agreed to withdraw.

The Redguards fought the main Aldmeri army. And they didn't decide to withdraw out of the blue. They had lost a good portion of their 'invasion force,' the armies for Cyrodiil were annihilated. They didn't want to further deplete their resources, so they withdrawed from a battle that they clearly weren't able to win.

Most of Hammerfell is a barren wasteland, which is why I doubt the Dominion would stand any better chance in invading Skyrim.
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Life long Observer
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:34 am

I have played both campaigns, and although the Empire isn't completely good, they're certainly better than the Stormcloaks. The Stormcloaks aren't genocidical. but they certainly are racist, as Brunwulf Free-Winter will tell you, like about the raiding bandits. Apparently, Ulfric doens't defend outlanders. I know he's biased, but even his biased view has a truth in it. You also cannot verify that the Dunmer in Windhelm are living there for free. Sure, they were 'invited' by the High King after the eruption of the Red Mountain, but that was nearly 200 years ago, and it seems a bit implausible that they're living there on Skyrim's cost for two centuries. And Argonians aren't even allowed in the city.

What does Brunwulf Free-Winter mention? Dunmer refugees? My point stands. Khajiit Caravans? Khajiit Caravans have their own guards, and no Jarl would give a damn about them.

Oh, and, I can:

Decree of Monument, 4E 20

"This tower once served as a meeting place where those brave souls who achieved safe passage to http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Skyrim would find loved ones, and leave notice for others who could not be found
Let it stand in honor for those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's offer "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Treaty_of_the_Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor."
We, the Jarls of Skyrim, hereby decree this site as monument to the struggle of those who fled their native home of http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Morrowind in the time following the http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Year."

That, and the fact that a Dunmer can sit on his butt all day and complain without consequence.
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Sasha Brown
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:26 am

What does Brunwulf Free-Winter mention? Dunmer refugees? My point stands. Khajiit Caravans? Khajiit Caravans have their own guards, and no Jarl would give a damn about them.

Oh, and, I can:

Decree of Monument, 4E 20

"This tower once served as a meeting place where those brave souls who achieved safe passage to http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Skyrim would find loved ones, and leave notice for others who could not be found
Let it stand in honor for those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's offer "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Treaty_of_the_Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor."
We, the Jarls of Skyrim, hereby decree this site as monument to the struggle of those who fled their native home of http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Morrowind in the time following the http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Year."

That, and the fact that a Dunmer can sit on his butt all day and complain without consequence.
That decree was signed a long time ago. The Nords who signed that aren't the same Nords who are around today, sadly.

Shame, really, the next generation could have learned a thing or two from them.
Good luck convincing the Argonians and the Hist.
Like we needed Black Marsh in the first place. No, I think it would be in the best interest of both parties that it is left alone.
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matt
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:32 am

That decree was signed a long time ago. The Nords who signed that aren't the same Nords who are around today, sadly.

Shame, really, the next generation could have learned a thing or two from them.

I think they did learn a thing or two.

Like stop bleeding your coffers for a group that's never going to reciprocate.
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Jamie Moysey
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:07 am

That decree was signed a long time ago. The Nords who signed that aren't the same Nords who are around today, sadly.

Shame, really, the next generation could have learned a thing or two from them.

Unless you can find something in-game that proves otherwise, this is still being followed.
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Penny Flame
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:15 am

Okay. Let's say the empire breaks up. The provinces that just left will have to unite. What will they unite behind? Who runs it? Maybe a council of representatives? One from each province? Or a single leader? Isn't that like picking a new emperor? If they were to decide on a single leader, what else have they changed if anything?
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maya papps
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:12 am

Okay. Let's say the empire breaks up. The provinces that just left will have to unite. What will they unite behind? Who runs it? Maybe a council of representatives? One from each province? Or a single leader? Isn't that like picking a new emperor? If they were to decide on a single leader, what else have they changed if anything?

I recognize this as a likely future. I think that the Elder Council will reform into a more international party, and they will have most of the control of the "Empire". There will still likely be an Emperor, but hes likely to be reduced to a figurehead. The Empire will have been mostly decentralized by this point, the power being split between the provinces.

Anything outside of the Empire will likely be solitary monarchies, or retain their current political status (unknown in Black Marsh's case, nonexistant in Morrowinds')

As for the Thalmor, they will be around for a while, but I think they are about to be taken down a notch
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FITTAS
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:52 am

I've chosen the empire for the simple fact that in my own opinion I fell they have a better chance at getting back at the Aldmeri Dominion over the long haul. The Imperials have a deeper experience and history with the Thalmor and though they signed the concordant the Empire has always kept a watchful eye and I believe they are just keeping the Thalmor close because that is exactly where you want them to hurt them the most when the time comes. The empire also has a standing Navy and heavy economic influence throughout Tamriel and the ability to mobilize and bring variable cultures under the same banner vs the Nords racist tendencies. The Empire already has heavy influence in SKYRIM and by beating the Stormcloaks in the Civil War it seems they have already established some stability and wherewithall to regain footing.

The Stormcloaks just have the same attitude as the Thalmor IMHO with their distrust and wanting to cleanse their provinces of those outside their race and you can't win many allies and gain support which the Nords will need because quite frankly the Thalmor will have the necessary coinage and means to pay to lay siege to SKYRIM for as long as they need. Yes the Empire has it's flaws and yes they love capital punishment, heads on spikes and public executions, but that's just what empires do because they are all about sending signals and messages to those challenging their authority. I'd be willing to bet the Stormcloaks if they were in the majority of power they would have Khajiits, Argonians, Bretons and elves strung up like road kill all up and down the Kings road to every city. The imperials are just better at unification, and quite frankly that is exactly what the Thalmor fear
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sophie
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:16 am

Who runs it?
I can see them all bickering over that for so long nothing ever gets done, if they don't outright come to blows.
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Mandy Muir
 
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