It was a challenge, and Torygg had no choice but to accept. Ulfric defeated him quickly and efficiently, as the court-members who were there will testament. They were honour-bound not to interfere.

Besides, as I've said before, apart from the Battle-Borns (and that matter revolved around a family feud) I'm struggling to find evidence that the Imperials are trying to root out Talos-worship at all. Quite the opposite, it seems. Even the General, from Cyrodil, turns a blind eye. All you hear him talk about is ending the civil war.

The Empire reaching a compromise to the Thalmor is nothing new. When the Empire invaded Valenwood, they decided it would cost too many men to fully take over, so they let the Bosmer keep a lot of their leadership. This is just the same, agree with the Thalmor on something, however stupid, save lives and resources to defend the nations under the Emperor.

The Stormcloaks, unlike the Empire seem only capable of seeing one step ahead at a time. They firmly believe that if they defeat the Empire, then that will be the last of their troubles. They do not consider the position they then put other nations in. Valenwood, the Bosmer are already forced under the control of the Aldmeri, most Bosmer would prefer full Empire rule if we listen to the Blades in Skyrim. As much as this is not clear as its only one perspective. The nords pulling away from the Empire not only weakens the whole of Tamriel toward Aldmeri domination, but also may end up in one of two situations. The first most likely, Thalmor conquer Skyrim and the nords end up back where they were. The second, the Thalmor convince Skyrim to help destroy the Empire, then most likely revert back to the previous. It would not be hard for the Smart Altmer to convince someone as short sighted and egotistical as ulfric.

And that brings be directly to Ulfric. To have someone as him lead Skyrim would be a disaster. He is a war artist. From the start of the game, to the end of the campaign, he speaks rarely of compromise. Just listen to his speach on how the leader of Whiterun is a true Nord. Where the Empire see the future of Tamriel, Ulfric seems incapable of seeing even te short term future of Skyrim. He is partially painted by the sentimental nords at the start as a freedom fighter. A mistake I believe on Beths part. As with little further investigation, we see the inherent racism surrounding Ulfric. Lets think in real terms of leaders, with racist undertones, that convince a whole nation to stand up and fight for what they think is freedom. So the nords gain Talos worship back and arent front line for the Empire, at what cost?

Racial segregation and tensions with other races? Like I earlier said, the Thalmor are biding their time, waiting for the outcome. If it be the nords, they will see that as a red flag to move any future attack on the empire forward, meaning for Skyrim they are just another obsticle, unlike if they stick with the empire and likely thwart off another attack, or put the Thalmor off attacking all together. Look at Windhelm, how the Dunmer are treated, imagine that large scale. This would result in the possibility of most foreign races leaving Skyrim, which I dare say would mean economic disaster for Skyrim.

Strict laws and punishment? Yes the empire are little forgiving of criminals, look at how the game starts, but I would see Ulfric who already has illusions of granduer, becoming far more and more of a Tyrant. Would this push more people toward groups like the Forsworn? Would the Forsworn later join another group? Maybe in and attack the Thalmor could recruit them against Markarth.

Another thing to consider, will Ulfrics treatment of other races anger another nation? The Orcs keep a seperate appearence in Skyrim, the Redguards are barely allowed into major cities, would these two old adverseries see a facist regime as a weakness? Would Ulfric go as far to clear out Orcs from Skyrim? I think its likely, he is a warmonger, and once the Empire is out of the way, he would look for the next battle.

Alvor lives in Riverwood, a very small village. Does he know about the nearby shrine adorned with slaughtered Talos worshippers? But I don't think the Thalmor cracking down on Talos worship is attributed to the Stormcloak rebellion. The rebellion wouldn't have started if it wasn't for the Markarth Incident and the corrupt Empire supporters in Markarth.

In a world where every single bartender and traveller in the country knows about some random boy in Windhelm trying to call on the Dark Brotherhood, that is not a valid argument.

Regardless, I'm talking about the past, not the present. I'm saying Talos-worship was tolerated before the Thalmor came; before the civil war. I'm not necessarily saying that Ulfric is wrong, nor that he only fights for his own gain - but rather that the Empire isn't evil and is in no way comparable to the Galactic Empire or Darth Vader.

I never thought they were, whoever did is either short sighted, crazy or sarcastic. In my eyes, the Empire aren't evil, but they are definitley puppets. While they aren't the ones committing these atrocities, they are allowing a weaker faction to do them, and that cannot be respected, regardless of their talk of fighting in the future. They should be fighting now, that's what the Stormcloaks are doing.

But the Stormcloaks are fighting the wrong people. If anything, they should have mounted an offense against the Thalmor in an attempt to force the Empire's hand. Make it so that the Empire either helps them out, or disassociates itself with Skyrim.

With no backing from either skyrim or the empire, they'd be setting themselves up for defeat.

The thalmor can pull the "Control your citizens or we'll call off the treaty" threat.

There's a lot of opposition to the Civil War, but I wager that the vast majority of Skyrim would be united in a fight against the Thalmor, and if the Stormcloaks get a couple of good victories in early on, the Empire wouldn't really have reason to heed Thalmor threats.

As it is, the Stormcloaks are setting up both the Empire, and themselves for defeat. They're depleting both areas' resources, soldiers, and morale with the infighting. If they lose, they lose hard and a lot of people will have died for nothing. If they win, it'll take them years to get back to the GNP they had before the war, giving the Thalmor a huge headstart on rebuilding for the next war. They're acting rather shortsighted and it's going to hurt them.

There's a lot of opposition to the Civil War, but I wager that the vast majority of Skyrim would be united in a fight against the Thalmor, and if the Stormcloaks get a couple of good victories in early on, the Empire wouldn't really have reason to heed Thalmor threats.

As it is, the Stormcloaks are setting up both the Empire, and themselves for defeat. They're depleting both areas' resources, soldiers, and morale with the infighting. If they lose, they lose hard and a lot of people will have died for nothing. If they win, it'll take them years to get back to the GNP they had before the war, giving the Thalmor a huge headstart on rebuilding for the next war. They're acting rather shortsighted and it's going to hurt them.

I maintain that I predict some retconning, or continuation, of certain prophecies in the future. The side chosen by the Dovahkiin in official lore will defeat its adversaries and ultimately force the Aldmeri Dominion beneath their boots.

So much biased talk of "honour" and "imperial svck", it makes me mad, All of you(including me) are just BIASED, we all support are sides and stick to them while calling the other side "wrong", Stormcloaks call emperor Mede II a "honourless coward", guys get it in your head that Titus II is the once who crushed the Thalmor at the second battle of the imperial city, not your "beloved" Ulfric... Imperial supporters can stuff it about that damm dossier( Im a imperial supporter).

He also signed over so much to the Dominion, for nothing in return. Skyrim and Hammerfell just decided they could do just fine without the Empire holding them back. And here we are, a worn torn Skyrim between the Nords and the Empire/Dominion. Empire/Dominion.....when you ally with your enemy, you become your enemy.

I always had the impression Khajiit are http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ahzirr_Traajijazeri.

Indeed they are not. So between what lore there is lying around, we can just figure that the Khajiit are in the same boat as the Empire just about, if not worse off.

Only problem with that is that you see a couple Khajiit agents working for the Dominion in the game. That's the only race other than Altmer where you see anyone who's pro-Thalmor.

The Empire is just as much to blame for not letting Skyrim leave like they did with Hammerfell.

But there has to be a canon ending.

I suspect that the main reason they didn't is because the legitimate High King never seceded from the Empire. No moot was convened after Torygg's death, meaning that there isn't a legitimate High King. Killing Torygg didn't automatically make Ulfric the rightful heir, and it probably hurt his chances of being crowned High King considerably, since he challenged someone to a fight to the death who was not only much younger and less experienced, but lacked the power of the Thu'um, which Ulfric used against him in senseless overkill. He probably thought it made him look stronger, but really he just seems like a bully at that point.

After that the Civil War erupted, which prevents a moot from taking place. Ulfric isn't allowing the normal channels of diplomacy to be held, and is attempting to become High King through force alone. I don't think he could be punished under Nord laws for his actions in the fight against Torygg, but he probably wouldn't be crowned High King, which is why he prevents the moot in favor of war.

I suspect Torygg could have withdrawn Skyrim from the Empire the same way Hammerfell did. However, Ulfric lost that chance because he desired power beyond his station. He killed the High King and tried to usurp his throne, all while calling for "freedom."

That's why I can't get behind Ulfric.

Hence why the side canon Dragonborn chooses will win! See, without his/her involvement, the war would last forever - or until the Thalmor decide to end it because they've gained enough power and desire stability in the region. It's only the interference of the Dovahkiin that tips the scales.

Thats exactly how you change leadership in Skyrim though. Why did the empire interfere with it? The moot isn't being called because of the civil war which was instigated by the empire.

A moot to discuss a claim of succession can only be called upon the death of the high king.

I'm not sure if this exists, but is there any sources in the game that say who fired the first shot after Torygg's death? If it's the Empire, then they're indeed in the wrong for stepping on Nord customs, but if the Stormcloaks started the hostilities, than it legitimately is usurpation and rebellion.

From everything I've seen, Ulfric already considers himself to be High King, so he's clearly disregarded the moot either way.