Meh. Both sides are understandable but one is corrupt and the other is a power hungry fool who just did what the Thalmor wants. I prefer that the Dragonborn becomes high king. Ofcourse but Ulfric won't do that because he is only fighting for the crown and the Empire wants Elisif. (who may won't be that bad but she seems to "soft" to handle the responsibility of a monarch.) And the majority of the Nords might would prefer Dragonborn to be the king of Skyrim. That's how I see it.

Oh gods, not this again. There is no indication whatsoever that the Stormcloaks intend "ethnic cleansing." Ulfric and Galmar discuss the fact that they've approached Hammerfell and High Rock for alliances. The fact that the most non-Nords are in Stormcloak holds seems to elude people. Sure there is unrest, but even with all the rancor and war, there aren't any violent ethnic incidents. Meanwhile the empire's supposed international coalition has already fallen apart before game time. The Khajiit, Argonians and redguard apparently don't know that they're supposed to still like the empire for old times' sake.

The Thalmor most fear the worship of Talos not being eradicated. Without that, their political aims mean nothing. The empire's appeasemant politics aren't working. They're just leading to victory by attrition.

Fascinating dispute, this. There's not really enough evidence either way to convince a supporter of one or the other that their way is correct, because there are too many unknowns. That simply not choosing a side is exactly what the Thalmor want doesn't help matters.

I'd recommend actually looking for evidence to the contrary if you're going to insist that a source is flat out wrong. Fact is what is said and what is written in both that and other books are not mutually exclusive. And the most counter-evidence I've seen is "it's clearly propoganda". You need something more solid than that.

I'm asking for evidence of a claim.

There's a reason burden of proof is on the one making the claim. It's because you can say anything you want and exclaim "Prove I'm wrong" Disprove that there is an army of akaviri headed straight for tamriel during the time of Skyrim. Or that the entirety of the thalmor army is actually just 200 survivors from the great war keeping up appearances by roaming the provinces.

You don't want to believe it for some reason but Igmund is pretty clear. He promised the worship in exchange for help in retaking the city. What beth chose to include here is quite telling. No in-game claims of ransoming the city, or the supposed war crimes of Ulfric, or any hints that Ulfric was being a dike to Igmund.(In fact Igmund acts like everything was his fault) Funnily enough Igmund himself reinforces the claims of Bear of Markarth if you replace Ulfric with Igmund in most parts. Wants to kill all the forsworn, executes children in front of their parents, doesn't trust anyone who has had contact with the forsworn.

But even that still wouldn't clarify the book because it's wrong on that part too.

"Every forsworn official was put to the blade" - Madanach and Nepos sure seem to be alive and well.

"So when a "grateful" Empire accepted Ulfric's victory and sent soldiers to re-establish the rule of law in the Reach, it was no surprise that he would demand to be allowed to worship Talos freely before the Legion could enter." - So now Igmund is the empire, and apparently got his own timeline wrong.

"True, some crimes were committed against former Nord landowners (often those accused of being the harshest towards their native workers), but on the whole the Forsworn ruled their lands fairly, and were making overtures to be recognized by the Empire as a legitimate kingdom." - Yes, suddenly the Forsworn had a change of heart. No longer would they sacrifice people to their old gods or hurt anyone, or listen when the hagravens tell them to kill someone. They committed crimes against the nords, but they were "fair" crimes.

I sided with the Empire but I go around killing the Altmer and freeing their Talos worshipping Nord prisoners. Ulfrics cause does not go beyond Skyrims borders and does little good for anyone who is not a Nord.

What about the burden of proof regarding the view on how it happened that you're championing? At least I have something to back up my claim, a written source. All you have is interpreting certain dialogue "from a certain point of view" and the assumption that Ulfric can do no wrong. In addition, we know that Ulfric was being contacted by the Thalmor, and that prior to the incident he was something other than "uncooperative".

I'll say it again: it does not prove that it was Igmund or his father (I've not actually heard of anything saying Igmund was the one who made the actual deal) that came up with the worship Talos thing. Even if they did it does not exclude the possibility of Ulfric in turn demanding it from the rest of the Empire.

And what proof do you have that he didn't commit those crimes? This isn't a real-world trial, we aren't supposed to simply assume he's innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Nobody ever disputes that Helseth had just about everyone in his way killed off (or tried to kill them off), despite the lack of actual evidence. Evidence must exist for either claim to be made, and there is more evidence that he did do terrible things in Markarth and demanded the Empire honor his terms for freedom to worship Talos than for the claim that he took the city and didn't kill civilians or Forsworn unjustly, and that the Empire approached him and offered him freedom to worship Talos prior to the attack. I wouldn't say it's solid but it's more than what you got.

As for Nepos and Madanach, nobody knew that Nepos was a Forsworn, and it seems Madanach's imprisonment wasn't widely known either, especially considering he was originally scheduled to be put to death.

Any alliance that builds themselves stronger is more likely to win than an alliance that bends over for the Thalmor. And how exactly did they manipulate Ulfric? They made him believe that information he gave under torture was instrumental in the capture of the Imperial city. How exactly is that "masterful manipulation"? And now he wont even talk to them so I dont see him as a thrall to the Thalmor. Not like the empire is a thrall. Letting them run around freely gathering intel throughout the empire, sitting in on meetings, wining and dining the ruling classes, and demanding suspected talos worshippers be handed over to be tortured till they confess. Tullius can talk a good talk about someday fighting back, but everything I see shows the empire in bed with the thalmor. Wouldnt surprise me at all if Tullius is actually sleeping with Elenwen.

If this is the case, then Talos is not a god, and the Emperor did not ban his worship because of the WGC, he banned Talos worship because it was wrong, and we, along with all the Imperials, accept this as a fact.

There are fools like Ulfric who are sacraficing lives in the name of a mere man, such a shame. May we find long years of prosperity with our Thalmor allies

I'd disagree. If the Empire wanted to go to war with the Thalmor, they'd not do as horribly as you insist. So there are Thalmor currently in Cyrodiil. As I recall, there were Blades in Dominion lands, for all the good that did. Information doesn't travel as fast as in the real world, the Thalmor in Skyrim or Cyrodiil can't just call their higher-ups in Alinor on the telephone if something big happens. If Cyrodiil were to decide to go to war with the Thalmor, if it was able to get into a position to do so (such as if the infighting in Skyrim was squashed) the first thing they'd do is do something about all the Thalmor in the Empire, just like the Thalmor were sure to get rid of all the Blades in Dominion lands first.

As for this proposed alliance with Hammerfell, it's been overemphasized and overused. I've not heard of any evidence of them allying with Hammerfell. If you have a source, please share it, something more than paraphrasing it. If that wasn't enough, Hammerfell is in all likelihood in worse shape than Cyrodiil. Yes the Thalmor aren't there anymore. No it wasn't easy to prompt them to leave. They fought for five more years and the fighting devastated southern Hammerfell. And even then we don't know the details of the Dominion withdrawal. For all we know the Thalmor may have simply considered it not worth the effort when they've got larger goals (as far as I know, the Redguards don't worship Talos). Heck, they could have even withdrawn because there was more to gain than by staying.

Regarding manipulation, I wasn't talking about them convincing Ulfric that the Imperial City fell, I'm talking about the revelation that he was in direct contact with them prior to the Markarth Incident, and that he was something other than "uncooperative".

Lastly, just because the Imperials are more subtle regarding the Thalmor doesn't mean that they hate them just as much, if not more.


Not quite. Unlike Ulfric's war crimes in Markarth, we got actual sources contradicting what is said in The Talos Mistake. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Great_War_%28book%29 for example. It's also contradicted by a lot of evidence in both TES III and TES IV. Saying Ulfric didn't butcher those Forsworn is like saying that Helseth didn't poison those people mentioned in The Common Tongue. Or that he had nothing to do with the untimely deaths of everyone in front of him in line for the throne of Morrowind. Or that the Thalmor had nothing to do with Ocato's death, or the death of the author of Rising Threat.

Finally, I don't think you realize just how much the Legion leaders in Skyrim hate the Thalmor.

I didnt say anything about how well they would do. I only said that as time goes on the Thalmor are getting stronger and the empire weaker - due to the power given the Thalmor by the WGC. The balance of power is shifting the wrong way for anyone to conclude that biding their time will be helpful.
I didnt say anything about that either. Are you replying to the wrong post perhaps?
Oh, is that what you call "masterful manipulation"? So before Markarth he was talking to them. So what? What was it you are claiming he said to them?

Agree 100% well done.

IMO, the Dragonborn should have no reason to get involved in the civil war. Defeating Alduin is the number one priority. Why should the Dragonborn get involved in a civil war where you have no moral high ground to pick a side because there is no moral high ground to either side. You have no reason to side with the Empire, because they tried to execute you and its by a fluke you survived. The Stormcloaks are racist, and have no right to destroy legal rule. The real enemy is the thalmor and without the thalmor there would not be this civil war in the first place. But as mentioned earlier, the Dragonborn has no reason to get involved, its not his/her destiny or business.

Tulluis Hates the Thalmor with a burning passion, In the start of the game he basically says !@#$ off to the ambassador, who wants Ulfric to be set free.
I would not be suprised if Ulfric sleeped with Elenwen when he was younger.

That's a roleplay decision. You could see yourself as savior of the empire because you're the first dragonborn in centuries, a renewal of the covenant Alessia made with the gods and inheritor of the Septim tradition. Or you could see yourself as the one who's saving the Nords from the empire's corruption and its betrayal of Talos. You could sympathize with one or the other for political reasons or personal. To give some examples of roleplay justification.

I think most of us have characters who fall on different sides. I have one Stormcloak, an imperial (an orc I played as a legion veteran), and two neutral characters.

I'm actually on the side of the Redguards in all of this. They held off the Thalmor without the aid of the Empire, making a convincing argument that the Whitegold Concordat was wholly unnecessary. I personally don't see Ulfric as power-hungry so much as proud with a strong desire to protect the cultural identity of his people. This is even reflected in the attitudes of bigotry against all foreigners and the Dunmer specifically in Windhelm. Why welcome outside views when the traditions you've clung to for generations are being threatened? However, that does not mean that I agree with his decision to further weaken the Empire by separating from it. In so doing he gives the corrupt Thalmor the opportunity to gain an even stronger foothold in Cyrodiil. They should have done something with a covert Redguard operation in Skyrim that you could aid, imo.

Hi all. My thinking on this subject first began when I came to a place in the game where an option I thought should be available wasn't. I believe that the following is revevant to the discussion here:

Please note that there may be a very minor spoiler in this request (an item you find early in the main quest).
Hi. When I finished the main quest I was wondering what was left. I had never chosen a side in the Civil War, so I was just under the assumpion that my becoming the Dragonborn would put a stop to it. Oops. I then read a bit online and found out there are two different endings, depending on what side you join. However, I feel that Bethesda left out a possible ending, an ending that I would consider to be the correct one, and an ending that they in fact allowed for via an item that you find during the main quest. First, though, some background from in-game books is necessary:

The Thalmor, a radical minority of High Elves who consider the High Elves (and only the High Elves) to be the decendants of the Aedra, seized control of Summerset Isle in the wake of the damage caused by the Oblivion crisis. Seven years later (4E 22), working covertly with supporters in Valenwood, staged a political coup and took control from those who supported the Empire. Together they formed the new Aldmeri Dominion. They then broke off all ties and communication with the Empire. Then in 4E 98 the moons Masser and Secunda dissappeared. (Since there were no reports of massive tidal waves or ground quakes, the moons in fact were still there; they just couldn't be seen). While this was disconcerting to most of Tamriel, for the Khajiit (who center so much of their lives and society upon the moons phases) it was the end of the world. When the moons reappeared two years later the Thalmor immediately stepped in and claimed that they had brought the moons back with "hidden magik". Whether this was a trick, a lie or the truth didn't matter; Thalmor popularity rose in Elsweyr to the point that 15 years later another Thalmor led coup overturned the supporters of the Empire and brought the Khajiit into the Aldmeri Dominion. The Dominion was silent again for 56 years until:

"On the 30th of Frostfall, 4E 171 the Aldmeri Dominion sent an ambassador to the Imperial City with a gift in a covered cart and an ultimatum for the new Emperor. The long list of demands included staggering tributes, disbandment of the Blades, outlawing the worship of Talos, and ceding large sections of Hammerfell to the Dominion. Despite the warnings of his generals of the Empire's military weakness, Emperor Titus Mede II rejected the ultimatum. The Thalmor ambassador upended the cart, spilling over a hundred heads on the floor: every Blades agent in Summerset and Valenwood." Thus began the Great War.

It started as a two pronged attack into both Cyrodiil and Hammerfell. Later observers would come to the conclusion that the original intent of attacking Cyrodill was to tie down Imperial forces while the Thalmore seized their true objective: Hammerfell. However, their initial incursions into Cyrodill were far more successful than expected, and the focused changed. That divided focus is what would eventually lead to their failure to completely take either objective, and the signing of the White-Gold Concordat. The Redguard refused to sign, stating that the Dominion could be driven back completely, but the Emperor feared his depleted forces would not be able to do this. So on their own, the Redguard successfully drove the Dominion out of Hammerfell. The Emperor was forced to renounce Hammerfell as a provence to preserve the peace treaty, so the Thalmor goal of removing Redguard support of the Empire was still a success. This left the Nords as the only supporters of Empire.

The White-Gold Concordat itself was the next phase of attack upon the Empire. By disbanding the Blades they removed the only intelligence agency the Empire had, leaving the Thalmor free to act unobserved. And outlawing the worship of Talos would sour the relationship between the Nords and the Empire, and eventually lead to a civil war in Skyrim. For the Thalmore the winner of the war wouldn't matter, for the final outcome would be a Skyrim sufficiently weakened as to be of no help to the Empire when the Dominion attacked again.

As to how this all relates to the available choices for the Civil War quest in Skyrim, choosing either side will likely lead to an outcome where the next Elder Scrolls game will be centered on Summerset Isle, as the Dominion will control most if not all of Tamriel by then. But the makers of the game did leave us, the gameplayers, another possible outcome by including that dossier on Ulfric. The just didn't flesh it out. DLC? I hope so. But if not then it definitely calls out for a mod.

And to those who would say that even a united Skyrim/Cyrodiil force couldn't take on the Dominion, I would ask them to remember that the Dominion suffered losses just as heavy as the Empire during the Great War. That's why neither side could continue fighting and agreed to a treaty. You don't agree to a treaty if you still think you can win now. But while both sides suffered the same losses, those losses affected the Dominion far worse than the Empire realized. All of the Mer races (High Elf, Bosmer, Dunmer) have very long life spans; hundreds of years. But in nature (and this is documented in Elder Scrolls lore) life forms with long life spans don't reproduce as often. A High Elf couple might produce 2-3 children over the course of 300-400 years. Humans, however, reproduce like rabbits (in fact this is probably what led the Snow Elves to attempt to wipe out the first Nord immigrants. They had gotten along quite well at first, but after 20 years it would have become obvious to them that the Nords would eventually breed them out of their own homeland). That's why the Dominion would go for long periods of not taking action; they had to train conscripts from acquired nations to take the place of High Elves who died on the battle field.

And as for the ending that I felt was left out? That the Dragonborn would convice the Imperials and Stormcloaks to cease the Civil War and unite against their true enemy: The Thalmor. And although this option wasn't given, there was a sort of "placeholder" for it within the game. From this point on certain spoilers from the main storyline and the Civil War storyline may be mentioned, so be warned.






During the main quest you infiltrate the Thalmor embassy looking for info to find someone. While in there you find three different dossiers; two involved in the current issue in the main quest, and a third about... Ulfric Stormcloak! This dossier reveals how the Thalmor are using him (he doesn't know about this) and his war to weaken Skyrim. The Thalmor set the whole thing in motion by strictly forbidding Talos worship in the peace treaty they signed with the Empire, knowing that this would eventually divide the Nords. Whoever wins the war, the Stormcloaks or the Empire, it is the Thalmore who actually win. With the Nords, the Empire's last remaining ally, sufficiently weakened the Thalmor can now finish off the Empire. An ending that I would have liked to have been possible (and perhaps even added via mod) is where the Dragonborn, at the truce meeting that takes place during the main storyline, reveals the contents of the dossier and the true intentions of the Thalmor and the ramifications of continuing this Civil War. You could even make it so that this option is only available if you A) find this dossier and have it with you at the meeting. From there the story could go in many directions. Both sides could just decide to end the war. Both sides could unite and turn against the Thalmor (who are still being resisted by the Redgard). Or Ulfric could refuse to believe any of this, forcing the Dragonborn to take him out and become High King of Skyrim himself. Being Dragonborn he could even convince General Tullius that he has a legitimate claim to the throne of the Empire. Many possibilities. Here is one possibility fleshed out:

At the meeting at High Hrothgar where the temporary truce is supposed to be negotiated, the following option becomes available if :
1. You have found Ulfric's Dossier at the Aldmeri Embassy.
2. You have at least the Persuasion perk.
3. You are the Thane of every hold in Skyrim except Eastmarch
4. You grant Ulfric's request to exclude the Thalmore Ambassador from the meeting.

You then inform all assembled of the Thalmor plot to weaken Skyrim as a precurser to attacking the Empire, presenting the dossier as proof. You ask both sides to cease fighting and hold in place (defending the areas where they are from dragon attacks) while you deal with the dragon problem at the source. Both sides grudgingly agree. You deal with Alduin and then return to the Greybeards to find that the cease fire has been broken and the bulk of both forces are converging on Whiterun. You tell Arngeir you have a plan, but first you have to go and gather some friends. Also, you need a BIG favor from him and the other monks.
A cut scene immediately takes you to the battle about to begin at Whiterun, with both sides charging at each other. But before they begin the skies fill with the roar of numerous dragons, and rows of fire scorch the ground between the forces, preventing them from reaching each other. Both sides stop in place and watch the dragons circle overhead. One breaks away and lands nearby. It is Paarthurnax, and you dismount from him. As you approach the armies you are joined by Ulfric, General Tullius and all of the other Jarl's of Skyrim. You inform the Jarls of the information revealed in the cease fire negotiation (that the Thalmor are the true enemy we must unite against), and yet despite this General Tullius and Ulfric have chosen to continue fighting each other. Tullius and Ulfric blame each other, and the other Jarls look displeased. Then you tell them that you have a solution that will appease all. The Empire will remove all non-Nord troops from Skyrim immediately. Skyrim will no longer be a provence of the Empire, or allow others to dictate how they will live and govern themselves. But Nords are loyal, especially to friends, And the Empire has been a friend to Skyrim for many centuries. Skyrim wil now stand side-by-side as allies against the Aldmeri Dominion, or any other enemies that they may face. General Tullius is reluctant to accept this, and wants to know how he can be sure that the new High King of Skyrim will abide by this. Ulfric states that he is the High King and will never defend Imperials. You tell him that he isn't High King until approved by the assembled Jarls, and that you now officially request to be named the High King of Skyrim. When asked you state your credentials:

1. You are a Thane of 8 of the 9 holds of Skyrim.
2. You are the Dragonborn, chosen by Akatosh.
3. As Dragonborn, you are the spiritual heir of Talos.

All Jarls except Ulfric vote yes. If you have the Intimidate perk Ulfric will back down and accept you. If not, then he states he and his hold will never support you. You then challenge him to a fight for the High Kingship, which he has to accept as it is his only viable claim to the throne. He tells you that only a Jarl can challenge another Jarl in this way. You then reveal the coversation you had with Arngeir. High Hrothgar has always been acknowledged as being neutral in political matters, so for practical purposes it has no Jarl. Until now. The Greybeards have named you the Jarl of High Hrothgar. Ulfric attempts to dispute this when you ask him if he's afraid to fight someone who's actually prepared to fight, and this goads him into attacking you. After you defeat him you talk to General Tullius and tell him to take this message to the Emperor: A new day is dawning in Tamriel. No longer will people allow distant empires dictate to them how they will live. He needs to accept this new reality in order that the wonderful things the Empire brings to Tamriel may survive. He should try to mend relations with the Redgards, and approach former allies in Elsweyr and Valenwood to see if they want to be in the Dominion, or would like help in becoming independant. There is also a final scene where you thank Paarthurnax for his help, and state that he and all the other dragons are welcome in Skyrim as long as they don't attack any of the inhabitants of Skyrim or their settlements. Paarthurnax thanks you, but says that perhaps it's best if they are alone for a time. He and all of the other dragons then leave.

This post is a condension of posts from the Nexus forums on this subject. The reason I'm posting it here is that a few of the commenters there really liked what I had to say and said that I should forward this to Bethesda. I've heard that the devs occasionally read the boards here, so I look forward to comments from them (and anyone else) about the ideas put forward here, and the possibility of something like this becoming DLC, or lacking that, a mod. My thanks to all of you for taking the time to read this.

This a good read there are many great points here. Well done. In all of the many games that I have played here in Skyrim, while I am infatuated with Elisif the fair, I have always taken a natural side. I regret that I as a dragonborn together with the Greybeards can't take on the Aldmeri Dominion. Now that is a fight I would stand up for--providing I could win the heart of Elisif the fair in the end.

Yeah lets betray the Empire who helped in every single TES game before Skyrim just so we can support Ulfric and his stormcloaks who we just heard about. Sheesh have some loyalty people, you are dragonborn afterall so you do have a right to lead the Empire.
And while i wont mention spoilers, Ulfric is not the man you think he is...

Barring some minor changes i would make (i don't think riding on paarthurnax seems befitting for his status), that seems like quite an interesting option, kind of like "the ultimate epic battle" option
Though im not sure if the empire would want to "turn against the thalmor"; they've never been allies with the thalmor and if the empire hasnt restarted the war it probably means they "arent ready" yet. Persuading the stormcloaks to unite with the empire would be interesting though.

a ) You don't know how other players feel about the empire. b ) This isn't the same empire. c ) I don't want to be the emperor. Cyrodiil can sort itself out or rot for all I care.

I Guarantee something like this will happen not too soon after Ulfric takes the High seat and realizes he's doomed every body...
-------------------------------
[The Dominion begins to close in on skyrim]

Ulfric: My sons and daughters are spent. My line has ended. Hammerfell and Highrock have deserted us. The Dominion betrayed me... Abandon your posts! Flee, flee for your lives!

[He turns around, and The Dragon born knocks him out with his staff of Mage light]

Dragonborn:... Any one got a problem with that?

Storm cloak soldiers: (in unison) *shake heads*

Dragonborn: Good, Prepare for battle!
-------------------------------

A very similar scenario, but in video form-

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US#/watch?v=qLpPAz0tz98



Seriously though, there's just too many odds against Humanity's and pretty much every other non-altmers' freedom with the Empire crumbling.

Regardless of who winds up in control after the civil war, any invasion by pesky witch elves has the daunting prospect of facing Skyrim's greatest general...winter.Not to mention there are only a few access points via land into the province, and they're choke points.Invasion by sea wouldn't work either.Northern Skyrim's seas are frozen.Stormcloaks or Imperials wouldn't need a massive army to hold off the Dominion.

I doubt the hundred strong population of skyrim could stand up to the Altmeri, so yeh, I'm siding with the Empire..

Which as we saw in Oblivion also only has a hundred strong.

Using in-game populations is a bad idea for gauging actual population.