whatever you decide in the civil war quest, the empire will collapse sooner or later. I believed thats what gamesas intended to do, and decide to add this to the lore.

If Ulfric was a thalmor agent/puppet/sleeper then he would not be fighting for a win. The thalmor dont want either side to win. They want the civil war to go on as long as possible. Ulfric wants it to end. They clearly are at cross purposes.

The imperials as a race are a much different idea than the Empire per se. If this was only a matter of another race subjugating Nords, then totally, the choice to join the Stormcloaks is obvious.

This is unfortunate, that they're named alike. Imperials are merely a race of men from southern Cyrodil. They're not the empire. And the empire are not "outsiders" even in the slightest sense of the word. They are not. I can't emphasize that enough. The empire has existed for hundreds, nay thousands, of years in various incarnations. All of which included Skyrim. The empire is an idea started with all humans and elves in mind. I'm not sure what race Alessia was, but this game world wouldn't even have the concept of it's gods without her. She blended both elven and human cultures and dieties, didn't quite play favorites to anyone, and made concessions for both Nords and elves, and she created the foundations of the empire by organizing this network. Down the line, Talos took the empire concept further, and he was said to be either from Atmora or High Rock (either Nord or Breton probably). What both Stormcloaks and the Aldmeri Dominion represent are two factions that want to dismantle the work of TES's greatest "saint" (Alessia) and greatest hero (Talos). They're both isolationists and can only define themselves by their differences and waging constant war. This was what the empire has always tried to silence.

As for the typical idea of a "king" - it hasn't existed in Skyrim for milennia. They've always been under the authority of the empire for as long as I've pointed out above. The idea of a self-governing high king ruling Skyrim is a concept that no one has any reference of or experienced personally. It's not like they've just been invaded and a bunch of old men are saying, "Well, in the good old days, when Skyrim ruled itself, and we had a king.. blah bah blah.." is silly. Those good old days never existed for long in the first place. It is so far back in their history that it'd be like if I got nostalgic about the "good old days", when tribal chieftans ruled the American landmass, circa 1800 BC.

edit:
Sorry, that was a mouthful for such a small quote

But since the Empire is banning (or trying to ban) the worship of Talos then Skyrim is not equal to Cyrodiil, right? So, in a sense, Skyrim is subordinate to the Empire proper and the Empire isn't ruling Skyrim out of the goodness of it's collective heart - it uses Skyrim for something (soldiers for it's troops, I assume). England doesn't tell France they can't be Catholic because in the EU (or Eurozone or WTFever they're calling themselves this month ) there is no overarching body of authority. Were the Jarls (and/or Nords) consulted before the White-Gold Concordat was signed or did the Emperor take upon himself to speak for all?

I resent with passion anyone who posts outdated/universally known information, images etc. and thinks he's the first who found it.



No offense to OP of course.

The Aldmeri Dominion banned it. The Empire is just weak, demoralized, afraid, what have you. The game is pretty clear about many elements within the empire not liking it. Rikke and Tullius support Talos worship. Hadvar and his uncle. And remember, Galmar and Ulfric were also part of the Empire. Rikke was their friend and comrade. She just thinks they went too far. It was never an issue of some looming "Empire" oppressing people's religion. It's a story of an empire afraid to provoke the Thalmor.

The real issue is whether, despite that, you think the empire is an idea worth saluaging. To undo thousands of years of civilization, and ironically, the very work of Talos, just because of a religious setback about Talos. There's nothing stopping an Empire who rejects it's terms with the Thalmor, once they realize how much trouble it's caused, and once they've realize they have a dragonborn on their side. Everything, from little guilds to people lives, is here for you to reshape as you see fit. I'm sure even if you choose the Stormcloaks, Ulfric is going to show his true colors sooner or later, and you're going to oust him too, and take over his cause in a proper way.

That's not really true any longer, if it ever was. Even in Oblivion you can see that the ethnic imperials consider themselves to be the higher race and in charge. They're quite happy to have the other races working and fighting for them, but they are essentially as xenophobic as any other race in Tamriel. Tullius embodies this arrogance quite well.

And with the developments since Oblivion it is quite clear that no matter what past iterations might have done, the Medes only care about Cyrodiil and are just using the provinces to hold the heartland. They'll bargain them off one by one if they have to. If Skyrim can't learn from Hammerfell, they really get what they deserve.

It's not a matter of trying to save the empire. The empire doesn't exist any more. The question is whether Skyrim should allow itself to be pulled down with Mede or whomever comes after him. If Cyrodiil loses Skyrim, maybe it will shock them into some better leadership and more parity, which will benefit everyone.

I don't see Tullius as xenophobic. He's just a colder, rational type. I can't help but be dismissive of the same things in the same way he is. When he has lines like "You Nords and your bloody sense of honor", I don't see that as xenophobic. I see it as him just loathing the lack of effiency and not wanting to deal with all of the emotionalism. People like him would address different situations in the same manner, even if it had nothing to do with religion or honor. Like if they were in the middle of two friends bickering, there are people like Tullius who tell them to please s.t.f.u. already.. "Lets move on. We've got a job to do", or "You've been best friends since childhood, and you're going to let that get in between you".. That's how I see him. Just more pragmatic. If you want to read xenophobia into it though, feel free.

Korr, Talos himself says that the Empire is old and it's time for something new. In Morrowind, shortly before you fight Dagoth Ur you can speak to a man named Wulf. He is an incarnation of Talos, and he says that the Empire is old and finished.

Skyrim was never part of Alessia's Empire (the First Empire was founded and ruled by Nords, Cyrodiil did not control it), but it did particpate in the Alessian Order. The Alessian Order was a genocidal, fanatical, bloodthirsty, anti-elven group who's leader claimed to have recivded visions from Alessia.

Cyrodiil would not touch Skyrim again (after Wulfharth wiped out the Alessians from Skyrim) until the end of the First Era. This is about 1500 years later. Reman dies, the Akaviri Potenate steps in until they are assassinated. About 500 years of chaos sweeps Tamriel, until Tiber Septim decided to conqour everyone... and not everyone liked it. To quote Cyrus the Restless "No Empire is a good thing." The Nords only liked it because Tiber Septim made a propaganda peace where he BSed some blood relation between the Cyrodiils and Nords. It was very effective, to say the least.

Alessia created her religion because the Nords didn't want to ally anyone who worshiped Elven gods. Alessia's pantheon is a lie (though myths and belief make it true).

Well, if Alessia's pantheon is a lie, then that would be even more reason for some players to not even care what the true nature and/or implications of Talos is. Once you strip out the entire pantheon, he might be in a completely different category other than a "divine". Someone that obviously exists beyond his mortal form (as suggested from Morrowind), but who may not be related to aedra, or daedra, for that matter. Someone that might not even be worth caring about. Or if he is, you have to create an entirely new religion around him.

Anyways, interesting post. Sounds like a Thalmor p.o.v.

Oh lord, here we go again for 600th time....I'll stay out of this one. I'll be in the back, slurping on a Pepsi and munching on some popcorn.

I'm slurping on homemade lattes. It's 2:55 AM, but I should be here for the rest of the day.

Eh, I'm munching Cheetos

On topic: I don't think the Empire is worth saluaging. Hammerfell had proven that Aldmeri Magic can be spat at with curved swords

Curved. Swords.

But the Imperial Legionnaire just sat there and did nothing. It is worth noting that by the time Hammerfell won, Aldmeri Dominion had already occupied the Empire in its entirety (a few months of free and official infiltration tend to give you that), so I guess by the time Hammerfell said Aldmeri Dominion was just a bunch of overheight goblins, the Empire was already too big a wuss (and too weak a milk-drinker) to start acting like a proper man.

You won't get anything for saluaging slaves. Look at Falmer Slaves in Blackreach: they try to kill you when you try to save them.

Sigh. I might just avoid the civil war entirely in a new playthrough. And even be nice to old Paarth.

I hate not killing Ulfric though. Something really unsettles me about an independent Nord state. I'm actually half Norse in real life, but I hate this crap. The caucasian centric implications are too close for comfort. If it meant that sometime in the future, it'd be a non-imperial world, with a bunch of cooperating seperate countries, I'll be happy.. but I'm skeptical of that happening. I suspect even more vicious levels of racism instead.

But neither the chaos characteristic of the the late Second Age nor Thalmor control are preferable replacements.

The One or the Nine? Because I recall Paarthurnax, someone who presumably predated Alessia by some time, acknowledging Akatosh.

Repelling an invasion against a severely softened enemy is one thing. Dealing with a recovered enemy or invading and destroying them is another.

The same "recovered" enemy had their entire attack force (not their entire general force, mind you) destroyed before they make the treaty, and the only reason they can attack Hammerfell was because they still have some forces left there, and their entire attack force in Hammerfell was destroyed. Again. By Curved. Swords

Which means, their only presence in Tamriel was only made possible because they were already there as part of the treaty. If the Imperial Legionnaire were to realize that "Hey, these guys with curved swords can do it, can't we swallow our pride and ask them to help us?", perhaps the White-Gold Concordant could be reverted within a few months

The White-Gold Concordant was a very grave mistake. Both sides were very exhausted, and both sides no longer had any forces left to fight in Cyrodiil, yet the Empire chose to undo itself

After all, there were still Hammerfell and High Rock

As they say, hindsight is 20/20.

I've never heard anyone saying that. Mostly because people here don't speak English, but also because I'm no English expert

Care to elaborate?

Hammerfell didn't expel the Thalmor forces by themselves, General Decianus' legion was still there to fight alongside them. The Aldmeri remnants were then defeated in Hammerfell because they were massing on the Imperial City. Then, after the Concordat is signed, Hammerfell fights only the little remaining Thalmor forces there and triumphs because the forces of both the Empire and the Dominion are greatly weakened after the reclaiming of the IC.

The Redguards are badass, but not that badass. If they were, they'd have taken out the Dominion by now.

I'll try.

The term refers to the fact that it's easier to condemn a decision as the "wrong" one when it's in the past. In this case, I'm referring to how the Empire didn't know that the Dominion military was as weakened as they really were, at least not at the time. The Dominion still had control of southern Cyrodiil and southern Hammerfell. And when the Thalmor made a bunch of demands to end the war, the Emperor failed to call their bluff. It wasn't until later that the weakness of the Dominion was confirmed by the Redguards defeating them on their own.

I was talking about how the Empire didn't react when Hammerfell won against the Aldmeri Dominion, and yes I acknowledged that when Hammerfell won, the Empire was already defeated

Which brings me my point: when the Empire heard that Hammerfell won, why didn't they think of rebelling against the Thalmor? Because seriously, if Hammerfell can win, then the Empire can too. The Aldmeri Dominion was already severely weakened, yes, but that's the point


Thanks for the explanation. I read about it from Cracked.com, but it was called historian's fallacy there. probably because it's Cracked

What I question is not that they agreed to surrender. What I question is that they didn't react with the fact that Aldmeri Dominion was already so weakened that a bunch of warriors with curved swords could kick their rump.

Because there was no way the Aldmeri Dominion could cover such a story

Well, by the war's end, the legions are cut down to less than half their pre-Great War numbers. That's a substantial loss of life. Plus, the counties of Cyrodiil are burning, with their inhabitants either run off or killed by the Dominion. It's not told whether or not Dominion forces were occupying these lands or not.

The only way for the Thalmor to finally be stopped would be to assault Summerset itself, an island guarded by the powerful Aldmeri armada. Plus, with Anvil destroyed, possibly even the whole Imperial navy out of commission, they might need to fight the Aldmeri client-kingdoms of Elsweyr and Valenwood before then. Defending against their invading army was one thing, assaulting the enemy in their own lands with battered forces is another matter entirely (not all of those men could be used to fight another war either, some would need to be garrisoned within the Empire or their own lands would be ravaged by raiders or bandits by the time they returned).

The terms agreed to in the Concordat are abysmal, but the Empire couldn't have realistically kept fighting until the Aldmeri were defeated, not with the devastation they'd suffered.

Crowns are always awesome. Specially when they let you stack it with tiaras. One more free school of magic, anyone?

I did not think that assaulting Summerset Isle is even a remotely good idea (as I already said, only their attack force, not their entire force), but it would probably be better for you if you don't have Thalmor spies on your government monitoring each and every one of your move

Especially when you might consider fighting said Thalmor in the future. The Empire basically gave Thalmor the ability to give the middle finger whenever they try to even raise a fairly decent army. The Empire was devastated, but with Thalmor spies everywhere, they're now basically Helluva Lot Of Slaves

truth be told, the whole civil war is based off of the issue of weather Mede was right in signing the WGC, which in my opinion he may not have been, but with what he was seeing, it may have been the only logical option.