the reason you should support the imperials : V

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:10 am

Spoiler

ulfric is a thalmor sleeper, everything he does indirectly benefits the thalmors ultimate goal of keeping the empire weak and vulnerable, the thalmor even secretly cede carefully limited funds to the stormcloak rebellion, ulfrics markarth rebellion was based off false information spoonfed to ulfric during interregation unbeknowest to ulfric that the interrogators were fully aware of his listening in and what he did in markarth is exactly what the thalmor wanted him to do

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:31 am

There are many reasons on why you should support each side, and none make either side better. Support who you want.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:06 am

It doesn't matter. I've figured out that the collapse of the Empire is canon. The Empire is going to be forced to grant Skyrim independence anyway. There's numerous hints in Skyrim: Dark Brotherhood quest to kill the Emperor. Civil War with the possiblity of Ulfric winning. Then in ES III: Wulf (Talos' Avatar at the Gate to Red Mountain in Morrowind) telling you the Empire's days are numbered and that things are going to get messy, and that it is perhaps time to find another way. Martin Septim being the last of the Septim bloodline ending 200 years before ES V. The Dovahkiin here is to thwart the Dominion in Skyrim + whatever is in the minor DLC and major DLC or expansion pack.

Whether ES VI has everyone else under the heels of the Aldmeri Dominion is another story. I don't think it will. So this will leave ES VI with an independent Skyrim, Kingdom of Cyrodiil (which may or may not be under AD control), and maybe a loose confederation of Hammerfell and High Rock. I think the Thalmor faction are going to have their own problems of overextending themselves. Not all Altmer support the Thalmor and what their doing. ES VI could very well take place on the Summerset Isles with another faction seeing the danger in the Thalmor plans. Dang, that would force me to play an Altmer. The Empire's demise is totally irrelevant.

This is just my opinion. I could be wrong.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:28 am

I hate canon talk. Might as well write me a novel then. I'm sure it'd be just as entertaining. Otherwise, choices should matter.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:41 am

I hate canon talk too, but I seriously doubt that Bethesda is going to allow us to carry choices we made in this game to ES VI. Given the size and scope of it, it makes handling things extremely difficult and talk about game bloat, and potentials for bugs. Think it's bad now? You'd have all these parallel dimensions that are the same worlds where different choices were made.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:29 am

I think they just want to prolong the war as long as possible to keep the Empire distracted. If Ulfric appeared to be winning, their secret funding would probably shift to the Imperial side instead.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:25 am

Imperials are garbage. They're a bunch of milk drinkers that caused the foresworn problem. They're the empires puppet. No way will I ever support them.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:17 am

Ulfric may benefit the Thalmor indirectly and unintentionally, but the Empire benefits the Thalmor directly AND intentionally. I don't know how so many people can miss that. The Empire is literally working for the Thalmor. So I don't see how supporting them somehow hurts the Thalmor more than supporting Ulfric, who clearly intends to take the fight to the Thalmor ASAP.

Not to mention the fact that the Thalmor state clearly in Ulfric's dossier that they do NOT want the Stormcloaks to win.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:38 pm

Spoiler

ulfric is a thalmor sleeper, everything he does indirectly benefits the thalmors ultimate goal of keeping the empire weak and vulnerable, the thalmor even secretly cede carefully limited funds to the stormcloak rebellion, ulfrics markarth rebellion was based off false information spoonfed to ulfric during interregation unbeknowest to ulfric that the interrogators were fully aware of his listening in and what he did in markarth is exactly what the thalmor wanted him to do

We know. We read the dossier. :smile:

But a large part of your post does not follow from that.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:59 am

Ulfric's a flaming jerk, and he probably tossed the Jagged Crown into the trash right after the (unrecognized) Dragonborn left his palace...
But the imperials are technically the outsiders here, so I could never support their cause.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:21 am

Ulfric's a flaming jerk, and he probably tossed the Jagged Crown into the trash right after the (unrecognized) Dragonborn left his palace...
But the imperials are technically the outsiders here, so I could never support their cause.

Elisif doesn't wear the Jagged Crown either. But can you blame them? That thing looks ridiculous. I could never take orders from Ulfric if he was wearing that, I would be laughing too damn hard.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:34 pm

No Empire has ever been in the 'business' for humanitarian reasons so the Stormcloaks have the moral high ground if only barely.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:40 am

I love how every few days someone comes on here and posts about the dossier in hushed tones as if no one's ever heard of it. LOL

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:36 am

No Empire has ever been in the 'business' for humanitarian reasons so the Stormcloaks have the moral high ground if only barely.

I think you're talking about our history here, not Tamriel's. Tiber Septim's Empire was formed through conquest (though not in Skyrim particularly), but as a result, it's creation produced a great many years of peace among the provinces. Other reasoning aside, I wouldn't rule them out based on the empires of our world. And while humanitarian principles may not have been the reason for its creation, the Empire has it's admirable aspects, cooperation between some men and mer being one of them.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:47 am

Elisif doesn't wear the Jagged Crown either. But can you blame them? That thing looks ridiculous. I could never take orders from Ulfric if he was wearing that, I would be laughing too damn hard.

No way man, I love that crown. Depending on what you're wearing it can look pretty awesome.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:47 am

I think you're talking about our history here, not Tamriel's. Tiber Septim's Empire was formed through conquest (though not in Skyrim particularly), but as a result, it's creation produced a great many years of peace among the provinces.

Since Bethesda has made the Imperials a race separate from the Nords then I would say it applies to Tamriel as well. If the High King of Skyrim is below the Emperor in an org chart then the same rules of Empire apply to Tamriel. If they are both equal then, technically, it's a confederacy.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:40 am

I support the Imperials already, because they have the Empire bound together at the moment, and keep it strong. But I also have supported Ulfric, seeing how the Imperials have not exactly been good people to the Nords of Skyrim. All in all, both sides are gray and both sides have the same goal; survive.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:01 am

There is no evidence that Ulfric is a sleeper. However if you go listen to Ulfric and Tullius both talk you can get a feeling for their position and attitudes.
Tullius

Spoiler

Legate Rikke: Im telling you, Ulfric's planning an attack on Whiterun.
Tullius: He'd be insane to try. He doesn't have the men.
Legate Rikke: That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause. Riften, Dawnstar, and Winterhold support him.
Tullius: It's not a cause. It's a rebellion.
Legate Rikke: Call it whatever you like, General. The man's going to try to take Whiterun.
Tullius: Jarl Balgruuf...
Legate Rikke: Balgruuf refuses the Legion's right to garrison troops in his city. On the other hand, he also refuses to acknowledge Ulfric's claim.
Tullius: Well, if he wants to stand outside the protection of the Empire, fine. Let Ulfric pillage his city.
Legate Rikke: General.
Tullius: You people and your damn Jarls.
Legate Rikke: Sir? You can't force a Nord to accept help he hasn't asked for.
Tullius: If Ulfric's making a move for Whiterun, then we need to be there to stop him. Draft another letter with the usual platitudes, but this time share some of your intelligence regarding Ulfric's plans. Embellish if you have to. We'll let it seem like it's his idea.
Legate Rikke: Yes, sir.
Tullius: You Nords and your bloody sense of honor.
Legate Rikke: Sir.

Ulfric

Spoiler

Galmar: Balgruuf won't give us a straight answer.
Ulfric: He's a true Nord. He'll come around.
Galmar: Don't be so sure of that. We've intercepted couriers from Solitude. The Empire's putting a great deal of pressure on Whiterun.
Ulfric: And what would you have me do?
Galmar: If he's not with us, he's against us.
Ulfric: He knows that. They all know that.
Galmar: How long are you going to wait?
Ulfric: You think I need to send Balgruuf a stronger message.
Galmar: If by message you mean shoving a sword through his gullet.
Ulfric: Taking his city and leaving him in disgrace would make a more powerful statement, dont you think?
Galmar: So we're ready to start this war in earnest then?
Ulfric: Soon.
Galmar: I still say you should take them all out like you did Deadking Torygg.
Ulfric: Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies.
Galmar: We're ready when you are.
Ulfric: Things hinge on Whiterun. If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better. But if not...
Galmar: The people are behind you.
Ulfric: Many I fear still need convincing.
Galmar: Then let them die with their false kings.
Ulfric: We've been soldiers a long time. We know the price of freedom. The people are still weighing things in their hearts.
Galmar: What's left of Skyrim to wager?
Ulfric: They have families to think of.
Galmar: How many of their sons and daughters follow your banner? We are their families.
Ulfric: Well put, friend. Tell me, Galmar, why do you fight for me?
Galmar: I'd follow you into the depths of Oblivion, you know that.
Ulfric: Yes, but why do you fight? If not for me, what then?
Galmar: I'll die before elves dictate the fates of men. Are we not one in this?
Ulfric: I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight...because I must.
Galmar: Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day when words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed.
Ulfric: I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn.
Galmar: Aye. But in the meantime, we have a war to plan.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:17 am

Spoiler

ulfric is a thalmor sleeper, everything he does indirectly benefits the thalmors ultimate goal of keeping the empire weak and vulnerable, the thalmor even secretly cede carefully limited funds to the stormcloak rebellion, ulfrics markarth rebellion was based off false information spoonfed to ulfric during interregation unbeknowest to ulfric that the interrogators were fully aware of his listening in and what he did in markarth is exactly what the thalmor wanted him to do

I've seen no evidence to support that claim. What you have is a dossier of the Thalmor which claim that he was an 'uncooperative asset', which is to say that they thought they could profit by manipulating him into doing things which might further their aims. They captured him, then let him go betting that anything he would do would play into their hands.

That doesn't make him a Thalmor agent, that just makes him bad news for the Empire. Well, guess what: When the Empire agreed to outlaw the worship of Talos, they signed up for a lot of bad news.

I support the Imperials already, because they have the Empire bound together at the moment, and keep it strong. But I also have supported Ulfric, seeing how the Imperials have not exactly been good people to the Nords of Skyrim. All in all, both sides are gray and both sides have the same goal; survive.

Ulfric's goal isn't survival, it's to live free or die trying.

You want to take the measure of each side? I give you Benjamin Franklin:

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

That tells you everything you need to know about Ulfric and the Empire.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:38 am

Ulfric: Well put, friend. Tell me, Galmar, why do you fight for me?
Galmar: I'd follow you into the depths of Oblivion, you know that.
Ulfric: Yes, but why do you fight? If not for me, what then?
Galmar: I'll die before elves dictate the fates of men. Are we not one in this?
Ulfric: I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight...because I must.
Galmar: Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day when words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed.
Ulfric: I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn.

Right after Ulfric mentions this I became a loyal support of his. His speech was very strong unlike the ones that I listen to on my first charecter as an imperial. Since then every other charecter that I make is pro stormcloaks. How can I change my status from stormcloak to imperial after listening to something like that?

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:37 am

And then there's the bit where Tullius is willing to cut your head off just because you happened to be found somewhere near Ulfric. A vote for the Empire is not a vote for civilization, in any sense of the word I'm used to.

Seriously, I've been wondering, how do Empire players justify siding with the guy who was going to cut off your head for no reason?

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:21 am

And then there's the bit where Tullius is willing to cut your head off just because you happened to be found somewhere near Ulfric. A vote for the Empire is not a vote for civilization, in any sense of the word I'm used to.

Seriously, I've been wondering, how do Empire players justify siding with the guy who was going to cut off your head for no reason?

Actually.... it's not Tullius - he's so fixated on Ulfric, he hasn't a clue what's going on (not to mention he's under Elenwen's eye the whole time). The witch of a captain is the one who makes the "off with her head" decision.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:20 pm

So Tullius doesn't know what his troops are doing, even if it happens directly in front of him?

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:05 am

The Empire is a dead dynasty. I would serve it if the Septims were still in charge but they aren't, the Dragonborn line only came to me because either Akatosh or Kynareth wanted me to be Dragonborn or I'm 1/100th Septim blood.

Empires rise and fall. I might as well give the Empire a quick death and help shape a new one rather than give the Empire what is essentially life support. I'm Dragonborn. As the Book of Dragonborn says, I'm also going to be the last Dragonborn. Might as well make my time in Skyrim be one that reshapes all of Tamriel politics.

As for Ulfric and the Thalmor...well Ulfric wasn't the Ulfric now. He wasn't the man who wants Skyrim to be free and topple the Empire's grasp on Skyrim. He was a soldier and Ulfric is now uncoopertive. He wants the Thalmor gone, if only to make his power stronger. Empire? They get rid of the Thalmor...then bam. An alien from outer space starts to poop on the White Gold Tower. The Empire is a magnet for disaster and they always need some fabled hero to save them.

Yeah...the Empire's done for.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:50 pm

No, he isn't. He's been reluctant to cooperate with the Thalmor. I don't think the Imperials like them either, but they have to tolerate them because of the White-Gold Concordant. What they really ought to do is unite and take down the Dominion.