Strategically, that's true. Like what the British Prime Minister (forgot his name) did: he told Hitler to have his merry way and came back to UK with colorful swearings as a reward, because Nazi was too powerful to fight

Difference is, he quickly established laws to prepare for the war (industrialization, stuff like that), but that treaty screwed the Empire one way or another

Eh, now that I think about it, no matter what Mede did, the Empire is screwed anyway

Unfortunately, you have to make some crazy daedric deals to get to the heart of the matter and "address" him personally.

The thing is too, you can do this as a Stormcloak or an Imperial. As i said before, I think I'm gonna avoid the civil war entirely for now, but it's easy to play a character who sees the point of the Stormcloak cause, but yet, thinks causing an outright rebellion and shedding of the empire, is "jumping the gun". So they act as faithful Nords in the empire, but end up killing the emperor in private.

It's almost like the same scenario Talos might've done. There are two varying stories on him, and no one knows what's true. In both, he's a much valued imperial general. In one story though, he's basically the emperor's right hand man. And when assassins attempt to kill the emperor, Talos is also attacked and gets his throat cut. He manages to survive, and takes over the empire - except he does it with a "whisper" and can no longer use the Thu'um. In another story, he was the one who killed the emperor himself.

My point being though, you can do very much the same thing as the latter, siding with Imperials. Where you move your up to legate, but secretly, you assasinate the emperor.

I started off by offing the pathetic emperor, then worked my way up the empire's ranks so I could restore the legion to its full glory.

Being a dunmer, I disliked Ulfric's treatment of my people, forcing them to live in the ghetto.

"A poor little baby dovakiin is born... in the ghetto..."

"In the ghetto..."

Maybe it's screwed and maybe it's not, but hastening its end while the Thalmor are still out there doesn't seem like a good move. The Stormcloaks can't expect to defeat the Dominion (and by defeat, I don't mean kicking them out of Skyrim, I'm talking about kicking them out of Valenwood and Elsweyr, and maybe invading Summerset afterwards) by themselves, yet they've alienated and antagonized two formerly allied provinces in the process of making Skyrim independent. Including the province that stands between them and the Dominion that they seem so keen on invading. And even if they are able to ally with the Imperials, I don't see them doing better than if Skyrim stayed in the Empire. And it will be almost solely to Cyrodiil's detriment. If Skyrim is truly better off independent, I feel it'd be better if they held off until there wasn't a group of man-hating elves threatening the world. Right now it just saps the strength of the mannish nations while the Thalmor recover.

The other issue is that the White-Gold Concordat is only valid so long as there is peace between the Empire and Dominion. As soon as relations break down, the ban on Talos worship will disappear. At least so long as the mannish nations are able to defeat the Dominion.

You still have to take into account that Thalmor agents have free access to any of the Empire's govenrment body

That severely limits the Empire's ability to plan any recovery for another war

And speaking of Valenwood and Elsweyr, the Empire also didn't react when Valenwood fell. They could've driven the Aldmeri forces out, but they didn't.

Talos forced his way into the Divine, and in that way the Nine Divines temple is wrong about how he did it. He wasn't made into a god by the others.



A name of convienence. His dragon name is Borhamu. And just because it has the same name does not mean it's the same: this Akatosh's creations demand human sacrifices, and are "built to dominate." Borhamu is not the friendly dragon from the Nine Divines pantheon.

Also, I don't want the Thalmor to control everything either. I hate the Thalmor, because I side with the Mannish view on Mundus. I just think the Empire being around for every TES game is the most boring thing Bethesda can choose to do. It's old, it's been around for long enough. No more Cyrodiilic Empire in TES.

It's done it's job in the lore. It still does, but if Bethesda keeps it around it will be like something in the fridge that has gone bad but no one does anything about it. Ulfric is much more interesting character than Tullius, and that's why they should win.

Eh, think of it this way. There aren't many fantasy settings (video game wise) that use a Roman inspired theme like the imperials here are. Why get tired of it when it's one of the things that actually sets TES apart? As simple as it is to use Roman influences, it's not a common idea actually. Most fantasy is derived from northern and western european legends.

Anyhow, back to "canon"...wishful thinking doesn't change much. Wishing this or that will go doesn't make it so. People like to tell themselves they have a grasp on what the true "canon" is, pat themselves on the back for it, and think the choices they make are the ones developers exactly have in mind. None of us know though. As long as we're allowed choices of prolonging various factions or ideas, then we must assume the writers have more in mind for their existence. If they really wanted to write them off, they would save not only the player's time, but their own time as well, by coding a more linear storyline. It's not that difficult to make a linear game. If they really wanted to do it, they would. Instead, they spend hundreds of hours and millions of dollars to make it more variable. All for what? So a certain segment of players can tell themselves they're the "true players" of the intended game in the end. To hell with that.

If the empire were really strong (and in its prime), the possibilities for adventuring would be more minimal, so I don't think we'll ever experience a TES game where everything is great. That said, there is a progression between Oblivion where the empire was still pretty strong and the people lived in well-maintained, good looking cities, and Skyrim where almost everything is a ruin and even the major cities need maintenance (or are missing entirely like Winterhold). Were the empire in good shape, some of this would be taken care of and the forts out there would be well maintained and manned, not ruins and occupied by bandits. It only looks good compared to The Capital Wasteland where EVERYTHING is a sad ruin, even the places people live and there's no prospects for improvement really (primarily because of the total failure of agriculture).

What we see in Skyrim is the empire in decline, but with the barbarians at the gate (in this case the Thalmor). Interestingly these barbarians really aren't barbarians (they're culturally sophisticated), nor are they more numerous than the empire (elves reproduce slowly) but the effect is the same. They are pressure on the empire from the outside. The question of what Skyrim should do is, unfortunately, a question that Bethesda deliberately makes difficult (or impossible).

It seems to me that the best you can hope for if the Stormcloaks win is conquest by the Thalmors at a later date. Even if they can resist, the empire will almost certainly fall and the Thalmor assume a much more dominant role in Tamriel. The best you can hope for if the Empire wins is to hold the Thalmor back longer, maybe even win a war against them if a new leader arises (maybe from Skyrim). Dynasties tend to die out and end up replaced by new dynasties, so I'm not too worried that there are no more Septims. I think the Empire is marginally better to support. But I admit I have to love for it (how could I as an American?)

If they do have the Stormcloaks win, the next Bethesda TES game may be the heroic resistance in the new Thalmor empire with virtually everywhere in ruins, and I can get that in the Fallout series. I say buy time and keep the empire going. Try to buy time till the empire can be reformed and strengthened against the quite visible enemy. If Ulfric were a reasonable wise person, one might hope that winning the war would get him to build a new relationship (a better one) with the empire but still support them against the Thalmor. But he is NOT a reasonable guy. The empire's representative is almost as bad, but I think few of us think Ulfric would do anything but stand by while the Thalmor attacked Cyrodiil. So buy time by supporting the empire. That's my opinion anyway.

It would be interesting if one of us were an actual working historian and could comment.

But what if he is ultimately making his way for a new champion of Cyrodil? The reason why High Council want to kill the emperor is because they think he is pathetic, and the state of empire is what it is, because of him.

It's supposed to be the near end of the world, more or less. That's why things are in bad shape. It doesn't just pertain to Alduin's coming... just everything is leading to an end state. Even small factions feel their sense of lost glory. The dragonborn and/or Akatosh can change it. The signs of the times mean nothing to them. They have the power to revitalize and recreate whatever it is they want. The dragonborn isn't here to just jerk off or something, at the very least. I believe there's a lot of player agency in this game. So it gets on my nerves when some players come around and only think of situations and objects in their current state, and condemn them for it (not talking about you.. just in general). Hell, even Daedra have lost some of their vitality and look towards you to be their champ. Meridia, for example, is definitely enthusiastic about it. Sanguine says "You're going places. Just remember your Uncle Sanguine, ok?"

What is this nonsense? After talking to the Forsworn leader, he says that Ulfric and his Nord Militia(Stormcloaks) did this.

Heh. Yeah, I was wondering if I missed some huge part of the game, where the Imperials had anything to do with forsworn.

The more I read of the lore, the more I think that the next game is going to be set on Summerset Isle, in a new High Elven empire.

ummm... no. Ulfric was naieve and paid the price for that. He was also a prisoner for "war crimes" and "worshiping a false god" before he gave information, and we've all seen that being in an Imperial prison includes all manner of torture devices and starvation.

Ulfric was also the leader of a militia group that took it upon themselves to clear the forsworn when the Empire was too busy defending the capital city to send anyone to protect Skyrim. That had nothing to do with the Thalmor or their direction as the reason the Empire was too busy to help Skyrim was that the Aldmeri Dominion was kicking it's butt up and down Cyradiil and Hammerfell and was directly in line with the fight he's still fighting now.

Where is there proof of this money you mention? What I've found is that the Stormcloaks are suffering for money up and down the map and it's the Imperials who are receiving monetary support.

Remember... the Thalmor benefit the longer that Nords are killing Nords and not turning their eyes on their true enemy. If there's support of both sides I can assure you that neither Ulfric nor Galmar knows anything about it on their end. Ulfric has no doubt or question who his real enemy is and anyone in bed with that enemy will die with them.

Well, yeah, the Empire agreed to it. My original point was that Skyrim shouldn't be part of an Empire; it should be part of a conferderation at best. As it seems to me now the Empire is over Skyrim and the Dominion threatens to be over the Empire if they don't ban the worship of Talos. I'm just basically saying that a foreign power (Empire based outside of Skyrim) shouldn't be controlling Skyrim.

That's the choice, isn't it?

I don't think Skyrim needs to secede though. Or even see them as seperate. They've virtually been a longstanding element of the empire as to be the Empire, more or less. There's a reason why some Nords in the game call them traitors. They're basically crying out for something unseen by any Nord. They're not enacting some idea that all Nords hope for. As if Nords lived in oppression and they're all Braveheart like, watching their women get [censored], and crying "FREEEDOM!!" All they're doing is taking a dump on general stability, and casting their lot with ONE guy who thinks he's the true king everyone needs. One guy. Who names an army after himself to boot. The fact that he's so desperate to be king is already bad enough. People that ambitious can't be trusted. And not only that, instead of fighting for freedom, he turns his guns on other Nords as his first strategy. That's laughable, as far freedom fighter movements go.

Because Confederations are so effective historically, right? The problem with them is each member wants to go its own way and without any central authority they have a great deal of difficulty working together.

And a foreign power? Skyrim has been part of the Empire for thousands of years and is the source of the Third Empire. That's worse than saying a state in the U.S. shouldn't be ruled by a foreign power (Washington). Heck, Skyrim has even historically had blood ties to the Empire. If you're going to argue this is just some foreign power, then you might as well argue that the Jarls don't represent the people and should be done away with too. Ulfric is just as much an illegitimate ruler as the Empire is; it isn't like he's fighting for democracy. The big difference is Ulfric has to cause a lot of deaths to get in charge.


You have your lore wrong there, friend. Ulfric was imprisoned during the attack on the Imperial City. After he was released by the Thalmor, after they were done manipulating him enough to consider him an asset, he went home. The Empire was severely weakened at that point and hadn't yet sent troops to clear up the Forsworn issue (who had been in control of the Markarth area for about two years by then). The local Jarl asked for aid from the returning troops. At this point it is unclear what happened. A forsworn-friendly book and another forsworn friendly person say Ulfric helped take back the city and then demanded for the Jarl to ignore the WGC before letting him back in. No one disagrees with that story, but no one backs it up either...so it isn't 100% clear if it is true. Shortly after that Ulfric is imprisoned and the Jarl isn't (though to be fair, the Jarl would undoubtedly have more political clout). It's worth noting that the Thalmor view the Markarth incident as an indicator of great success regarding their ability to manipulate the Ulfric asset, which I think lends some credence to the whole thing being Ulfric's idea.



Aye, if he was really a freedom fighter, it would make more sense to be "bandits" that attack the Thalmor throughout Imperial lands. That way you actually are attacking the enemy. Instead he kills and alienates tons of potential allies, gives the Thalmor an excuse to enter Skyrim, and works hard to weaken the forces of man for which the Thalmor are immensely happy. Of course, doing that wouldn't give Ulfric the title of High King...

Not a reason good enough. I hate imperials' guts.

besides, even if Thalmor start some serious crap and are about to enslave the world, one of their prisoners will get super-awesome powers and kill em all.

History notwithstanding the Empire is acting imperial and not allowing Skyrim to be Skyrim. It would almost be like the US telling Puerto Rico they can't be Catholic.

Nope, the EU will crumble soon. I wasn't speaking to the historical stability of confederations, I'm just saying that Skyrim should rule itself whether the Stormcloaks facilitate the break-away or the Gleaning Hammers or the Spandex Stretchers or whoever.

You're really keen blaming it on the empire specifically, instead of the Thalmor. I understand just the word "empire" provokes strong imagery, but that's not what the situation in the game is.

To take your Puerto Rico example, it'd be more like if China (The Thalmor) brought America to it's knees, and America had to make some ridiculous compromise like that in order to get a ceasefire. Then suddenly Puerto Rico raises hell and causes a civil war.

Except, it's not Puerto Rico in this game. It's more like Skyrim is New Hampshire or something. One of the original 13 states that was part of America from the very beginning. That's how integral Nords are to the empire. They've been there from day one. There hasn't been a self ruling Skyrim since King Borgas, I think, which is thousands of years in the past. Really, there's no real world comparison to how longstanding the relationship between Nords and the Empire goes. New Hampshire nor Puerto Rico don't fit the example well. "Skyrim for Nords" is as far back as our own iron age. If someone in the present era actually raised hell and assasinated the president so he could resort to something that far back, everyone would laugh at them and send them to get psychiatric help.. not to mention prison.

There's no particular reason why the EU will crumble soon, but generally it's been far less effective the looser the ties were between countries. Certainly it has been tending to have closer ties and more central authority over time than not (granted, this general trend isn't without some steps against that now and then). Not saying it isn't having trouble, but all participants realize it is better than going alone. I imagine eventually it will turn into a unified nation.

And again "Skyrim ruling itself" is a misnomer. No one is ruling themselves in the TES universe. It isn't like Skyrim is going to become a democracy, which is actual self-rule. There's nothing special about if the authority stops with the High King or the Emperor, both don't rule based on popular support, both can be tyrants. Skyrim shows that many of the Jarls are horrible, don't do a good job, and many aren't remotely popular. Self rule? Please. It's just trading one autocrat for another, only the new one is pretty power hungry and considered an asset by Skyrim's and the Empire's worst enemies.

OK, my original point is that no Empire is in the business of imperialism to protect it's territories out of the kindness of it's 'heart'; my anologies are just to try to convey that point. Back to my Puerto Rico example: the US doesn't protect Puerto Rico because we feel badly for the Puerto Rican people - it's strategic location is important due to it's proximity to Cuba.

The US is a federal republic so New Hampshire doesn't have the option to oppose/secede from the federal government. Skyrim seems at best a jewel in the crown of the Empire with the Jarls as terrirotiral governors/magistrates.

I'm not trying to debate TES lore or the history of the Empire in it's numerous forms over the centuries.

I think the issue about the bailout of Italy is going to come to a head.

@Korr.

No, they haven't been ruling Skyrim themselves for 600 years. Borgas was thousands of years ago. There have been many, many times where Skyrim has ruled itself.

After the death of Borgas Cyrodiil actually lost influence in Skyrim. IIRC, no one was really a member of the Alessian Order after that. Cyrodiil wouldn't touch Skyrim for another 1500 years. Then Remen came, created an Empire that lasted for 600 years.

More time of chaos for about 400 years. Tiber Septim comes in, assimlates Skyrim peacefully. After using Thu'um and Dragonborness to demoralize them and propaganda to make them love Cyrodiil. Another 600 years pass, Medes Empire is crap.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/merethic-era

After Borgas, everything lost influence. The territory became split amongst itself, I believe.