Aren't you forgetting how the first Nordic state was founded by foreign conquerors from Atmora who exterminated the elven population?

And then how they were willingly incorporated into Cyrodiilic states not once but three times, constituting the majority of Tamriellic history?

The presence of elves and mnogrel Bretons (Reachmen) in Skyrim is older than the presence of the Nords themselves, and yet the Stormcloaks 'Skyrim for the Nords' rhetoric ignores this. The Stormcloaks are really just a fringe of society making broad claims.

Stormcloaks for me.

1. I like fighting againest the big guys.

2. Stormcloaks characters are more charactristic for me, with good vioce actors who I enjoying interacting with.

neither. i will kill any stormcloak or imperial legion guard if i get the chance.

I'm a Stormcloak myself.

1. Ulfric himself is not racist. I remember once I had to report to him to report a mission and when I entered the Palace of the Kings he was speaking to his steward. The steward told him about a raided Dark Elf or Khajiit Caravan or group or something, out in the wilderness, who knows what it was. Ulfric carefully considered the information and told him to wait till there was more information because he didn't have the soldiers to spare to hunt them down when they didn't even know where this raided caravan or whatever was attacked.

2. The Empire is not the Empire it was. It is not the Empire of Tiber Septim, and it needs to be reforged again with a ruler that has accomplished something. TItus Mede was just a Colovian warlord who saw a fine opportunity to become Emporer. That title needs to be given to somebody who has the will to reconquer Tamriel and unite them once again. And that man is most definitely Ulfric.

Speaking of Germans, Skyrim bailing out on Empire now would be like Germany bailing out on European Union now. Seeing how Skyrim IS the Empire, the founder of it and the main force of it, even though the seat is in Cyrodiil (like EU seat is technically in Belgium, but which country is the largest force of EU?).

It's 50/50. I haven't decided yet due to game breaking bugs forcing me to roll another character for the 4th time.

Imperials all the way like my ancestors in morrowind and oblivion.

First, a history lesson:

The Great War was a war between the Thalmor and the Empire about 30 years before the game begins. The Thalmor is the Altmer, totalitarian, elitist and fascist head of body in the Aldmeri Dominion - another Empire that encompasses the Summerset Isles, Valenwood and Elsweyr; the homes of the Altmer, Bosmer and Khajiit respectively. They came to power after the Oblvion Crisis when the Septim Dynasty fell and the Daedra were driven back by Martin Septim and the Champion of Cyrodiil. The Thalmor however, claimed that it were them that rid Tamriel of the Daedra, and thus were revered by the majority of the Altmer populace, and were inaugurated as the leaders of the newly established Aldmeri Dominion. Altmer dissidents were hunted down and killed, and a 150 years later, when the provinces of Elsweyr, Black Marsh and the newly occupied by the Argonians, Morrowind, left the Empire, the Thalmor attacked the Empire with swift and unmerciful wrath.

The Empire, which had it's hands full with striking down insurgent rebellions, were completely surprised by this, and the Thalmor devasted the Empire, sacking the Imperial City. A year after the occupation of the Imperial City, the Empire struck back, claimed the Imperical City once more and wiped out the Thalmor army in Cyrodiil completely in a great battle called "The Battle Of The Red Ring".

However, it was not without loss and the soldiers were all tired from the years of fighting. The Empire was forced to sign a peace treaty with the Aldmeri Dominion which was heavily in the Thalmor's favour. The Empire gave up a part of Hammerfell and agreed to ban the worship of Talos. However, the Redgaurds didn't take too kindly on giving up a part of their homeland, and they seceeded from the Empire aswell, leaving Cyrodiil, High Rock and Skyrim to be the only remaining provinces of the Empire, however with Morrowind's Dunmer populace still supporting them. This secession eventually let to the Aldmeri Dominion attacking Hammerfell, but the Thalmor was driven back by the Redguards single-handedly.

A short time after the Great War, the native people of the Reach attacked Markarth and claimed it for themselves, once more after it had originally been conquered by the Nords. Ulfric Stormcloak, then a legionary of the Empire, made a deal with Jarl Igmund of the Reach: If Ulfric and his legionarys would help take back the Reach, they would be free to worship Talos, also known as Tiber Septim, an ancient Nord who founded the Empire and the Septim Dynasty and then acended to divinity. Jarl Igmund agreed, and Ulfric claimed the Reach for the Nords once again, and were free to worship Talos. However, the Thalmor found out and began dragging people off in the night and killing Talos worshippers.

Then Ulfric founded a small personal army to forward his ambitions, which later got the name The Stormcloaks. He felt that the Empire had failed him by signing the "White-Gold Concordat" (the peace treaty that ended the Great War) and thus began to speak out against the Empire and for an independant Skyrim. He didn't get much attention by anyone, but after he killed the High King Torygg of Skyrim, a man who stood up for the Empire, he suddenly recieved everyone's attention - including the Empire's.

The Rebellion and Civil War has now been going on for about 6 months, and HERE WE ARE! Caught in the ambush by Imperial General Tullius, Ulfric manages to escape... And you must decide the rest of the income.

Now here's my point of view:
The Empire had no choice but to sign the peace treaty - fact. The Empire is the only thing that stands between the Aldmeri Dominion and Skyrim - fact. If Skyrim became indepedant, it would be VERY costly, and the Thalmor would see a golden opportunity to attack Skyrim and make it a part of the Aldmeri Dominion. The Thalmor has grown in strength since 30 years before, so there is not a chance in hell that Skyrim could stand up to the Thalmor like the Redguards did - remember they battled the Thalmor just after the debilitating Great War - to think that the Nords would also be able to drive the Thalmor back after a civil war is preposterous! The Empire have already shown that they can stand up to the Thalmor, even after such a large-scale surprise attack - the Empire will, as soon as they feel that they are ready, break the peace treaty and allow worship of Talos once more. The Aldmeri Dominion will do whatever it takes to convince you, that they have the upper hand, but that's crap. The Empire is growing strength, but if they lose Skyrim, they will probably lose the next great war aswell and thus allowing complete domination over Tamriel by the the elitist and fascist Aldmeri Dominion. A united Empire is better for everyone.
For good or ill, the Empire is the lesser of two evils - and that is only so, because of the ban of Talos worship.

First time I went with the stormcloaks since I never liked people who want my head in a basket. My other playtroughs are almost all imperial since I like to run around in their light armor and being one of them. Oh and they have a bigger chance of defeating the Thalmor...actually they don't because the player is the dragonborn...instant win.

Imperials,but only because I despise Ulfric.

Stormcloaks want their land away from the Empire's claw, it's a political independence they are looking for, not rejecting other races.

If you go to Whilhelm, you will experience that only the low lives are racists, cos they have no vision of what the bigger picture is, a bit like some of you here say the civil war is a race thing.

Stormcloak
Empire is a thrall to the Thalmor. The WGC does not allow the empire to rebuild so much as it weakens the empire and strengthens the thalmor. They are allowed to infiltrate the empire and skyrim, allowed to demand any prisoner and torture them to confession, and allowed to bribe Jarls and the wealth class to further gain political positioning in the empire. Tullius may naively think the empire is rebuilding to one day fight the Thalmor, but if you look around you can see the opposite happening.

The Greybeards mention how many a dragonborn have become corrupted and power hungry because of their gift from Akatosh. And that is what Ulfric is - power hungry, although he isn't a dragonborn, but merely a traitor to way of the voice.

He's a bigoted racist with an insatiable hunger for power - and there is evidence to support this. The Imperials believe, that he is only using the 'Markarth Incident' and the White-Gold Concordat as cover-up for his own ambition to become High King of Skyrim.
But in the process he also forgets how much the Empire has done for Skyrim in the way of wealth, trade, protection and civility. The Empire protects it's citizens no matter what. The Empire has always been good for Skyrim and let the Nords follow their own traditions and customs - it is only now, when the Empire has given up the right to worship Talos out of necessity for peace, and when the Empire needs the Nords the most, that Ulfric rebels. Although Ulfric's actions are understandable, they are not justifiable.

The way I see it, the Thalmor knew, that the ban on Talos worship would cause severe problems for the Empire - especially in Skyrim where Tiber Septim/Talos came from. They knew it would split the populace in two, and draw away the Empires attention from the Thalmor. They knew, that an eventual civil war would weaken the Empire - especially if the Empire didn't win. The longer the civil war drags on, the more severe the casualties, the better the chance for the Thalmor. The Thalmor is well aware that they cannot take on a united Empire, especially not if the Empire is aided by Morrowind and Hammerfell - but they don't cease to try and make the Empires populace believe that they are far stronger, so as to keep morality low and stir up resistance against the Empire.

Remember, it was the Empire who wiped the Thalmor out in the end, not the other way around - and the Redguards single-handedly drove them back after the Great War, when the Thalmor, just like the Empire, was weary of war and had suffered severe casualties. The only way the Thalmor got the upper-hand in the first place and sacked the Imperial City, was because they surprised the Empire completely with a large-scale attack as the Empire desperately tried to prevent further secessions. If the Empire wins the civil war, they will be ready for the Thalmor and the Thalmor will lose, thus preventing the Aldmeri Dominion from controlling all of Tamriel and imposing their fascist ways.

The Way of the Voice is a philsophy, not some sort of institution you owe your unwavering loyalty to. You can no more be a traitor to the Way of the Voice than you can be a traitor to Buddhism.
Ulfric never comments on race, and being hungry for power is not a slight on him any more than it is a slight on the Medes, the Septims and anyone else who has ever achieved power in TES.

Black Marsh left the Empire pretty much during the Oblivion Crisis, although one could question whether it ever really was an Imperial province at all. Elsweyr allied itself with the Thalmor long before the war. The destruction of Morrowind and the Argonian invasion were both long before the Great War as well.

Both of these are heavily disputed. Hammerfell and Ulfric feel the Empire betrayed them (and its own heritage) in order to buy peace for Cyrodiil just when they turned the war around, while in a sense it was the Empire and their treaty who brought the Thalmor to Skyrim in the first place.

It is so strange that people who support one cause seem to ignore some of the facts that put that side in a worse light or make the other side in a better light. I generally support the Empire, but I think the Emperor should have tried harder exclude the Talos worship ban, Ulfric should never have been offered free worship in Markarth, Hammerfell should have been excluded from the WGC as well and the Thalmor should not be allowed to have embassies outside Cyrodiil. Maybe things wouldn't have changed much since I doubt the Thalmor would agree to the WGC if it didn't ban Talos, but they should have tried. The Empire shouldn't hand over prisoners either.

Then why do I support the Empire? Because as I see it they have a more realistic plan for dealing with the Dominion in the long run and even though the Empire is only the remnants of the Septim Dynasty I believe they may re-establish Tamriel-wide peace, but who knows?

was this repsonded to alread? if so im sorry but i could not just let it go. the argonians are outside of windhelm because they are too poor, that is because of the only racist nord in skyrim (Who is also not in the stormcloaks), he does care what happens to dunmer (he gave them a place in his city but they just complain about it, they are just being idiots) and the only reason he only sends his men to help nords who have been attacked is because he cannot scrafice troops to someone who will not join the stormcoaks (they [stormclaoks] take everyone but most people from other races are not interested in fighting for the right for another race's homeland to rule itself).

p.s. mede made a terrible move by surrendering to the thalmor, if he was a better man he would have pressed the advantage and called upon the other nations in tamriel (cause, as-is, the emprie cannot, even start to regroup because the thalmor can totally destory the empire from the inside by calling whoever they need to a talos worshipper and killing them)

stormcloak and proud

As my character is Dunmer, at first he was aligned with the Empire, even though he was about to be executed. The way he saw it, he got caught up in a situation that he knows nothing about, but was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He had reasoned that if he were in Gen. Tullius' position, he'd have done the same thing because it made sense; you have no idea whether or not this prisoner is in league with the Stormcloaks or not, and whatever he says is suspect.

Then I read a thread similar to this one, where I was staunchly behind the Thalmor, that my character believed in what the Dominion was trying to do. After I read a few posts by a forum member named Celan, I reversed my character's way of thinking to the Stormcloak cause, because there is just no hard evidence that anyone has provided that proves the Stormcloaks are racist, and that Ulfric is a racist. To be honest, Ulfric has one thing to worry about, winning this war and securing Skyrim. Once that is done, he can look at the geo-politics of the rest of Tamriel and decide what he wants to do about it. When rebels fight a war, they are not thinking of the politics in the rest of the world. They are concerned with winning the current civil war, and using whatever means at their disposal to do it, that includes bringing in the enemies of the state they are trying to fight a war with. EDIT: They do use some geo-politics in the regard to finding out who is the state's enemy, and trying to use them for support in fighting said state.

This conflict, as presented in it's current state, is pretty shallow. Not really deep or meaningful, certainly not like how Fallout New Vegas's situation is portrayed. There are similarities in that both sides are not good nor evil, they have their flaws.

What I have recently decided to do, is look at the big picture, and see what is best for the Dunmer that currently reside within the province. They lost their home to a natural disaster and an invading force. They were given refuge, with all self governing rights with no strings attached. The people of Skyrim were sympathetic and generally welcomed them as friends. The only people that I've ever heard racist comments from, are the drunk guy in Windhelm, and the Stormcloaks who are talking about the Dominion elves of the Thalmor. If anyone is failing the Dunmer in Windhelm, it's Ulfric's Steward. The Steward has the right and power to make the situation better and resolve the issues of Windhelm. The fact that he seemingly does nothing, is who really is failing the Dunmer and the Argonians within the city.

I've noticed no real racism from the Empire, or the Imperial Legion. There is a Dunmer who is a Legate in the Dawnstar Legion Camp (I believe that's where he is) and I believe there is a few more scattered around that I have not seen yet.

Both sides have different objectives and reasons as to why they want Skyrim. One can assume that when the war is over, Hammerfell and Skyrim become strong and staunch allies, Skyrim helps the Dunmer in massive and good ways, maybe even going so far as to help them take back Morrowind. If not, support them in ways that bring a large contingent of Dunmer into the new Skyrim military, bolstering the ranks. On the flip side, the Empire secures Skyrim, restores the Dunmer back into Morrowind, taking back the provinces that left minus the Dominion provinces, rebuilds it's fighting force (Imperial Legions) and works to drive the Thalmor out of the provinces, renewing/starting another Great War in which they have a pretty good chance of winning.

My character sides with Ulfric and the Stormcloaks, because Skyrim is as much his home now as it is the Nords home. He's been raised in this society, knows nothing else, so why wouldn't he fight for his home? The only reason he was caught going across the border, was because he was returning home to join the Stormcloak cause, and was caught up in what he was already going to join in the first place. He also wants to show the Dunmer that they need to fight with Ulfric, to show him they appreciate his generocity, and that they are ready to fight for a cause that is worthy to fight for. All they had to do was accept Ulfric's invitation to join the Stormcloaks, and things would be so much better. Dunmer being Dunmer, they are very proud of who they are, almost as much as Nords being proud of who they are, and would see it as bending the knee to a Nord. It wouldn't be the case, because they are only there in Windhelm and Skyrim because they lost their homeland. All the Dunmer need to do is show Ulfric they support him for showing them such generocity, and he would reciprocate by liberating their homeland for them after he is made High King. I'm 99% sure that he would do that, because Ulfric is a very proud and honorable man, at least in my characters opinion and point of view.

Everyone has a strong opinion, whether it's backed up by facts, fake facts, or ignorance. The beauty of it is, you support who you think is right, who you think is better for the people of Skyrim, and who you think is better off at getting rid of the Thalmor.

Current character is for stormcloaks, but the Imperials see the big picture. The nords are not being realistic in their ideals.

In the age of Alduin, though, effective realpolitik may not be what carries the day. Although they haven't thought this through, the consequences of forgetting Talos entirely could be dire.

I hate imperialism in real life. So I definatly hate the imperial army (not imperials themselves, just the army)

Ah, another one of these. Alright, here's what will happen, and some of it has already:

Blind Empire suppporters will be blind Empire supporters. That's not saying people who support the Empire are wrong, but most of them have the wrong reasons to.

Anti-Stormcloaks will be Anti-Stormcloaks, claiming that Ulfric is racist and power hungry and that he is nothing but a power-hungry whiner and an asset to the Thalmor, referencing the appropriate, but not credible enough in-game events. Majority of this will be debunked, as with every Civil War discussion.

Indeed. Same with the Stormcloak supporters. Both sides need to understand that there is good and bad points about both sides.

depends completely on the roleplay.

right now my nord loyalist hates elves and most imperials.

a nord traitor would be fun later, though.

Stormcloaks aren't fun, they are Rebel scum!

Really? Those are facts, huh? Please don't state that because it ends up making you look like a [censored].

"The Empire had no choice but to sign the peace treaty - fact."

They had as much of a choice as they did to agree to the very same terms that were offered to them before the war started. What 'forced' them to accept the treaty? The fact that they had annihilated the Dominion's entire Cyrodiil Invasion force, while still having half of their Leigons intact? The fact that five years after the signing of the WGC, the Hammerfell invasion force didn't have enough resources to continue fighting the independant Redguards, whom their whole army was stuck in a stalemate with?

"The Thalmor has grown in strength since 30 years before, so there is not a chance in hell that Skyrim could stand up to the Thalmor like the Redguards did..."

So has the Empire and the other human provinces. And remember, Men reproduce at a much faster rate than Elves do. And Skyrim would have a large amount of combat-ready soldiers, because it was not touched during the great war, the only Nord casualties were the Nords that served in the Leigon. Yes, the Nords, who make up the Leigon's finest warriors, rivaling the Redguards. I wonder how much of a chance the Aldmeri Dominion would have in invading the homeland of the Nords and defeating them.

Ulfric did not make a deal with Jarl Igmund. Jarl Igmund pleaded with Ulfric and his militia, he is the one who made the offer to allow them free worship of Talos.

And why would Skyrim's Independance mean that the Thalmor will attack? If they were ready to attack, they would've destroyed the Empire already. If the Thalmor stood a chance against the Empire after Red Ring, they wouldn't have agreed to the peace treaty. They would've continued waging their war against the Empire because the eradication of men is one of their ultimate goals. Unfortunately, the profound general but poor politician, Titus Mede II, greatly over-estimated the Dominion.