Steelforged: Your explanation is fine, I think people can understand now what the OP meant when he compared Skyrim with WoW. And once again, my eyes hurt because of people's stupidness, because they can not understand that the OP doesn't want Skyrim to be WoW, he wants a well functioning basic "feature", that works in WoW, in Skyrim because the level scaling in Skyrim should get some tweaks.
People, you know the three discussion thingies?
Assertions (don't know if this is the right word), arguments and EXAMPLES.

No, they shouldn't

Op is right. You all are wrong. That is all.

Assumption is the word you're looking for I think.

To be honest, I see the point in the argument, but to dismiss level scaling for that argument alone is pointless. To me level scaling works, it takes discipline to get the best out of it (i.e, NOT power levelling Smithing, how tempting it might be to do so) and getting out there and slaying Dragons, Trolls and Bandits (and kill a few Elves while you're at it) instead of hanging around villages and towns with your Amulet of Mara on display and finding out which NPC's are gay or not.

The archetype MMO levelling system (WoW for examples) works to keep balance in a community of players (So that the Pallys can't spank the Warlocks too easily and so on). But Skyrim is not, never has been or ever will be an MMO, so it doesn't matter if there are a few little balance issues that can me ignored without breaking the game through disciplined playing.

The problem with some gamers these days is that they've spent years playing RPG's which level up you character for you, now we have a game that lets you do develop you character how you want to develop it in your own way, and where you can travel to anywhere within the game world and come across enemies they SHOULD be able to defeat if they've been levelling correctly, and they start whining because they either don't understand how it works, or they're just to lazy to make the decisions themselves and wants the computer to do it for them.

A Single Player game should be judged on the FUN level, not unbalanced elements. When the game stops being fun (cause you raised your pickpocketing, speech or lockpicking) by facing enemies too strong for your combat level - then we have a problem.

While the OP could have put the things more clear in text... and explain why bringing a MMO in discussion (cause it has some good design decisions), it has a point. The game should be fun, no matter if you level your non-combat skills to absurd levels. The game remains an action-rpg with a lot of combat.

Honestly, I don't know why we're comparing this game to an MMO. Newsflash - MMOs aren't designed to be fun. MMOs are designed to keep you playing for as long as possible while taking a monthly fee. That's why they have ridiculous grinds, and leveling is a gated process, because the developer hopes that the carrot they're dangling in front of you ('just four more levels until I can use this sword, 'just a few more quests and i can go to the next zone', etc) will keep all you good little hamsters spinning on that wheel. And then you when you do get to the top of the mountain, here's a new patch with better gear to go grind for, or a new expansion with 10 more levels. Rinse and repeat.

I don't want Skyrim to look, feel, or behave in any way, shape, or form like an MMO.

I personally don't want every game to be a clone of each other. I don't want games to even use slightly similar methods.

This is an open world game. Honestly if things didn't scale, then we're put on a rail. There are thousands of rail games out there... I am actually happy this game plays more like Myst with some combat mixed in.

If I want to fight specific zones at specific levels I'll play a rail game, not Skyrim.
If I want to fight specific mobs at specific levels I'll play a rail game, not Skyrim.
If I want to wear gear that has level requirements I'll play a rail game, not Skyrim.

If I want to play a game that I can go anywhere in the world at any level I'll play Skyrim, not a rail game.
If I want to fight anything at any level I'll play Skyrim, not a rail game.
If I want to play a game that I can wear any armor at any level I'll play Skyrim, not a rail game.

I don't want this game to be like those other games because those other games already exist. I don't need this game to be like a million other games, this game should be different.

"Break my character".

That statement right there proves that the current system is flawed. It should be impossible to have a broken character. This brings me back to mob scaling be based off your character's prowess in the combat skills rather than straight up level. Major quests should have multiple way to go about completing them. Keeping it within reason of course.

You only break it if you exploit it. And if you exploit it you might as well just use console commands.

Exactly. Little common sense goes a long way here. Standing in Whiterun making hundreds of daggers should not put in you in a position to go face-roll Alduin the World-Eater.

It's obviously not the intended way to level smithing. Can Bethesda fix it? Yes. But demanding that it be fixed because you deliberately went outside of the game's intentions and then are shocked that it doesn't work is a ridiculous complaint. Stop power-leveling [censored] like this is WoW. Simple fix.

Actually The Elder Scrolls leveling system (up to Oblivion included) as well as EVE's learning system are the two best way to improve your character i have ever seen in games, Skyrim being good but subpar because it was dumbed down/casualized.

And those games exist. You can still play those games too. I personally don't like FPS games. I don't go into their forums and say "This game should be more like Skyrim! Skyrim got it right!"

I honestly feel that begging for this game to be like other games, even if they're in a similar genre, is as silly as begging this game to be more like Mario Kart.

All the obnoxious fans [censored]ed that they couldn't become godlike because the enemies leveled with you. Now they don't, and people are [censored]ing they can become too strong?

You can't win with these people. They gripe about everything. Shut up and go play something else.

Eh ?
Where did you see me begging ?
And actually if i am quotting those games it could hint you on the fact that i actually play to them.

I agree 100% with the OP. I have experienced exactly what he describes in Skyrim. Level scaling is an cheap and easy way out instead of making areas in the game with different difficulty.
My main character is now a lvl 36 mage and he is absolutely useless because I leveled with lock picking, pickpocketing, alchemy and enchanting. I haven't maxed any of them, but together they got me to this level and my fighting skills is laughable compared to any bandit in Skyrim at this point. The mage seems to be especially hit by this problem compared to warriors and archers.

I really can't stand level scaling. Not on enemies and certainly not on loot!

EDIT: Can't delete a post? Oh well. I misread what you were saying, ignore this.

I was more referring to the OP's post.
When anyone says make Skyrim more like WoW I just feel they can go play WoW...

I absolutely and wholeheartedly disagree. An open RPG is about going where you want with the potential to do what you want when it fits you. The MMO experience is about pushing player from area to area to help them get close to endgame. The goal in Skyrim is to awe the player with in depth areas and continuously challenging the player as he/she levels in order to keep the challenge fresh. Level scaling is probably a harder way to make a game, because you need to re-invent the same mob in a way that makes them harder. Its easy enough to attempt any level, health, damage amount on a mob and say MORE CHALLENGING, when all it does is make the mob slightly more comparable to your level. Its different, especially in Skyrim. Its better to come out of a dungeon and go, wow that was hard, because it means the game lasts longer as you spend more time in areas.

And not to mention, World of Warcraft is now designed to blow through areas as quickly as possible, with no regard for content before the maximum level. Vanilla WoW is a totally different experience when you spent 3+ months making a max lvl character to your "I have 8 level 80 characters now!". I am sorry, this isnt good gaming design, this is designed to keep you subscribing by giving you the same sense of accomplishment. Your not really getting quality content more then your getting re-hashed old content with a new mob texture and model on it.

Exactly. I don't want to be pulled along a rail. "You're level 10 so now you get to fight the trolls! Now you're 15! You can fight greener trolls!"

I'm never trying to get to max level in Skyrim. My guild isn't waiting for me to level up so I can run raids with them...
I don't want Skyrim to be like Final Fantasy 7, where I can just grind 100 more random encounters to make the next boss easier.
I am in no rush to get to level 80...

Going back to the OP...I have been keeping my Smithing skill at generally the same level as my major/most used skills (Destruction, One-Handed etc) and I'm not drastically under-powered. I think if you decided at level one to just do nothing but smithing you might have some problems in combat (especially in all perks went into Smithing). Were you familiar with the level-scaling in Oblivion and Skyrim? The lack of it in Morrowind led to many dead characters (MW fans remember the occasional oddity of being attacked by a Cliff Racer at level one? ::shudders:. I think the level scaling in Skyrim is near-perfect. I still get my butt handed to me by tougher enemies but I do very well otherwise. You may have simply made poor choices in how you developed your character early on.

I recommend a new character. Maybe follow one of the guild questlines through conclusion and see how that character stacks up (I recommend the Companions). Your opinion might change.

Ah, my bad, sorry ... and i agree with your statement, although i think that if Beth keeps this trend we will hit WoW level during the next Elder Scrolls games anyway.

skrim is not a mmo balanceing in mmos is done to maintain pvp balance k ? ;p

After browsing the entire thread this is my point of view on the whole level scaling issue:
It's fine as it is. The only problem/issue I have with the game is that, in my opinion, you should derive your character's level from your combat experience and not from non-combat experience so you could go pickpocket to your heart's content and it would raise your pickpocket skill but NOT you actual level, you level (and by extension the level of your enemies) would only be gained by using combat skills (melee combat, archery, destruction spells, etc).

Seriously, IMO, if they split the skills between combat (levels skill and character) and non-combat (only levels skill itself) the game would be perfect.

+1

I guess since MMO players have basically ruined their own genre with their easy-mode, self-entitlement mindset, now their goal is to ruin SRPGs. In the long-term, they'll probably just jump from one game type to another, infecting each of them with their whining. You know, like a virus.

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