It is called balance.

I am going to be explaining things that piss me off about skyrim that was completely avoidable.

misconception 1. (level scaling is needed in an open world game)

WTF is an open world game? Is that like LA? Does that mean because i did some matches of mma at the local gym, i should be talking [censored] in compton?

News flash! open world is balanced by the fact you CAN go anywhere. It doesn't mean everything should be your level AND that everything should scale up to your level.

What is WoW do? Ever see a level 1 gnome race to gadgetzan? Them fools die left and right. Are they closed though? Can they simply not make the trip? Ofcourse not. WoW is a huge open world. MUCH bigger then Skyrim. Yet they keep everything in ranges so the players have adequate challenges and if things are too hard for THEIR SPECIFIC CLASS, they can level up, come back, and do it much easier.

This however brings me to misconception 2.

(Regular trash mobs need to scale up to your level)

Now this is a huge problem. Why? Let me tell you why. WHAT THE HELL IF YOUR LEVEL IN SKYRIM? I can be level 15 in skyrim with 100 smithing and have 0 combat perks or even worse, be a mage with no access to high level spells. Now I go into the world doing a basic quest i got at level 5. Somehow these bandits now become super gods making entire walkways into towering fires and 2 shotting me with lightning while I am wielding apprentice spells or using swords with no perks or enchants?

Do you see what I am getting at here? There is no power level for level 5. Level 5 strength is completely random for the player. However, the enemy doesn't play by your decisions If you get forced to level while doing non combat tasks, the enemy will be ready for a level 15 WARRIOR with full warrior perks while all you got is some smithing perks and speech..... This is why there needs to be hard caps on level scaling. The leveling system is so punishing for anyone not focusing entirely on one combat tree. If you spread yourself out and try to do everything, you will notice by around level 25 that the most basic mobs will beat you and a 3v1 is absolutely impossible.

The power level of a player's level is a non fixed thing. How can you justify fixed scaling for enemies?


Misconception 3. (Warriors don't have to be as powerful as mages. Just lower the difficulty if your a mage or use broken mechanics)

This one is silly. Do you know how many MMOs that were completely destroyed simply due to leveling difference between classes. If a warrior can faceroll through every quest while a mage has to drink after every 2 mobs and if they get caught in melee at all, they insta die, NO ONE WOULD PLAY MAGES. This is what makes games linear.

If you play a certain style, you are completely unviable and miserable all the time. If you play this way though, everything is too ez. 2 extremes and the only way to get the median is to follow a specific set of rules you have to make for yourself.

Misconception 4. (Don't max smithing/enchanting/alch if you want to enjoy the game.)

This is [censored]. You should want to max everything. But the system itself should set clear limitations on how you achieve this. For instance, let's talk about WoW again since it probably was the best designed game of all time with years of balance changes. In WoW, smithing could be powerleveled as it is in skyrim but unlike skyrim, there literally was a level cap that you had to exceed before you could craft anything that is actually equippable. For instance, you can not equip god sword of the divine +5 if you do not exceed level 55. You can not learn expert smithing until level 35. ETC. Another thing is that dagger you made at 1 smithing will give you no skill past 10 smithing. O_O. What? I have to spend gold to make smithing good O_O. Improbable.

This was limitations they put on the game to help deal with balancing the jobs in the game WITH the leveling and overall progression feeling of the game. Even heirloom itmes you get with end game currency scale appropriately with your level so you don't completely 1 shot everything. Sure you will be crazy strong if you stack it up, but even with all that, your not walking up to a boss and soloing it with 1 hit like that level 20 warrior in skyrim smacking the dragon once and gibbing it.

These are my gripes. Feel free to comment.

Edit: This is for clarification so the troll posts stop. I am complaining about casually leveling up trade skills will actually hurt your character significantly so playing the game as it should be done is impossible. You must either go all in and smith to 100 and stack it up OR don't touch it at all. If you do the median, you will be severely underpowered because the enemy will out level your ACTUAL power level. Especially is you are a mage. So stop trolling me saying "you complain about exploiting smithing then getting owned because you didn't fight." I never said that anywhere in this entire post. "This isn't an MMO" No [censored]. I didn't say it was nor want it to be. But I feel a game should be relatively challenging. Not super impossible hard OR super [censored] easy. It is so rare to have a balanced playthrough because of level scaling. But by all means, if you have anything to say that isn't these common troll responses, shoot away!


These experiences have made me reroll so many times simply because i hit a punishment curve I knew nothing about and felt stuck. IE level 24 mage that focused on nothing, just did all my jobs and tried to use every magic. Then bandits from the beginning quests have master level spells while I am still running around with apprentice spells doing 1/15th their hp with double charged fist and watching my summons get 2 shotted.... I didn't know if I tried to be well rounded i would only end up well pounded.

Er, Skyrim isn't an MMO?

Please stop comparing this game to WoW. Just stop.

There's also a reason why this isn't a mmo

Just take the game for what it is. I understand your gripes but nothing is perfect. I don't know about you but I don't expect everything to be fixed or perfect. I just try to enjoy it for what it is.

I shall sing the song of troll worthington junior the 8th of that little cave down the road.

OP shall not go to Sovngarde, for he is an imbecile.
His post is riddled with pointless drivel, if only he sat down and thought.
Everyone shall now throw rotten vegetables at this man for he is not worthy of care.

Yes it is not...
Yes please stop...

Skyrim is not a competition, it is more like reading a novel.

Put it on master, and if you dont like you OP character, roll a new one.

Comparing Elder Scrolls to a MMO....? Hahaha

All this ranting to compare a single player RPG to an MMO?

HELLO!!! SKYRIM IS NOT AN MMORPG!!!! STOP COMPARING IT TO AN MMO!!!!!

Seriously wtf. This has got to be the most FAIL thread.

There's also a reason why every MMO is a dull money pit.

Never played any MMO, specifically not WoW. But...

stop bashing the OP. He is right in virtually all accounts: They should have made Skyrim closer to, e.g., Oscuro Oblivion Overhaul.

There is one issue with that however: if you do not include scaling and expect the player to experience most of the game world this is a time commitment of hundreds of hours. They would have lost casual gamers then. It's a business decision...

Lots of people seem to be missing the OP's point: Skyrim has balance problems, and MMOs have implemented ways of fixing those problems.

So far all I'm seeing are knee-jerk reactions to the WoW/MMO comparison, without understanding the point the OP is trying to get across.

I agree with the OP 100%. The level scaling is completely ridiculous. And yes, he's comparing the leveling aspects to an MMO (WoW). Well newsflash everyone, WoW leveling is basically a singleplayer questing experience; same as TES.

Let me put forth a scenario here (that I was actually faced with while playing): I went into a dungeon as a level 8 or so archer. I left the dungeon with LOADS of iron ore. While in the dungeon, I killed everything easily; 1 or 2 hits per enemy. When I got back to town, I decided to use said iron ore to make some armor and make some money. Turns out I got two full character levels from the smithing and when I went back out to the wild I got absolutely decimated by bandits who had suddenly became gods while I made armor.

Level scaling (to this high degree) needs to stop! I don't understand why people are accepting, and even defending, this faulty leveling system that is making leveling more of a chore. Level scaling kills TES. TES is supposed to be a free roam game where you can be what you want to be! But with this absolutely punishing level scaling, you have to stay focused on combat to not be completely battered in combat situations. I wanted to roleplay as an alchemist ranger who wandered the forests collecting ingredients and using my bow to defend myself, but after going into town and making potions and leveling from alchemy, I returned to the woods the next day to be absolutely DEMOLISHED by the so-recently weak foes that I had been demolishing the previous days.

Why do people defend this system that is forcing you to play in certain ways to be able to survive? Wouldn't you rather play the way you want to without being held down by level scaling?

There is also a very real reason why MMOs put so much more work into balance than a single player RPG does: You're not competing against anyone. If certain playstyles are harder in an MMO, people don't play it, thus creating a lack of said class which makes for end of game raiding quite imbalanced. In a single player game, if a certain playstyle is harder, then don't play it! If something is easier to do, the people who prefer an easy game can pick that whilst the die-hard master difficulty players will have a ball with it.

You don't need balance to the same extreme in a single player game.

Ok. well riddle me this batman. Compare it to baldur's gate 2. THE BEST RPG OF ALL TIME. Open world too. Levle scaling too.


But guess what? Your level 13 mage was usually as power as a level 13 mage of another player. In skyrim, it is completel random but the enemy will get stronger no matter what. Thus you get left behind with no where to do safe leveling or questing.

MMOs are RPGs. Their quest system is from RPGs. THeir classes are from RPGs. Their balance is from RPGs. Everything about WoW is comparable to skyrim so saying it isn't comparable is stupid. Does WoW have warrior, rogues, hunters, mages? Does WoW have open world? Does WoW have enchanting, alchemy, smithing? Is WoWs goal to make you feel like a special snowflake?


Ofcourse but why compare an rpg to the most successful rpg of all time. Madness I say.

If the OP used another similar single player game (Eg: Dark Souls, Skyward Sword) as comparison, i would respect his opinion.

But to use a MMO to judge Skyrim is like telling someone driving a car svcks compared to flying an aeroplane. lol

Edit: just saw your Baldur's gate 2 reply.
Baldur's Gate 2 is indeed a very good game. But can you honestly say that it is "THE BEST RPG OF ALL TIME"?
Is Baldur's Gate 2 really very balanced? Can you find NO FLAWS in that game?

Do not be blindly led by Bioware, thinking that they can do no wrong. They've proven that they are just as fallible as any other developer.
Case in Point: Dragon Age 2.

Who gives a (censored) about WoW!?

Am I the only one that didn't have a problem with the leveling system? I mean really was the game that hard for you?
It's not the best but it's not the worst. I just don't understand the hate.

While I understand your thoughts on this. You miss the point of their balancing of lower levels. Leveling a mage in vanilla was god awful. So awful that even if they were good end game, no one waned to play them. They didn't scale at all with gear until level 60, they got 2 shot by everything, they svcked balls. Same for warriors who was always weaker then the enemy and needed to heal after every pull.

They originally tried balancing the game off of end game until they realized the RPG players wanted to enjoy the leveling and lore of the game but if it became a ridiculous chore (like mages in vanilla) then they would simply not play the game because not everyone wants to run a rogue to level up without being in constant distress.

Imagine if in any rpg, you were level 10 with a warrior with level 10 damage and gear. Your enemies are level 10 too and slightly weaker then you. You go into town to do smithing (somethng that shouldnt punish you) you head back out at level 14 but your really a level 10 warrior. Your enemies are now level 14 though. They resist most your damage, hit way harder, and outnumber you....

Enjoy trying to make up the power curve of difficulty you put on yourself by leveling smithing a little. With the jobs in skyrim you have to go all in. Leveling up as much as you can per trip to a city will get you killed. Everyone will scale and your mid level enchantments and armor will be a joke to the enemy. ALL IN or dont touch em at all. This is how skyrim works. Your punished for out of combat leveling which is almost completely unavoidable.

Oh crap, i leveled up by selling gear.....I just wanted some gold but now i got a punishing level....

ITT: Yet Another Level Scaling svcks Rant?

Newsflash - WoW and other MMOs are linear.... you go from the 1-10 zone to the 11-20 zone to the 21-30 zone. That's not what Bethesda games are like. Deal with it.

Also, a wall is a wall is a wall, regardless of whether it's an invisible forcefield, a pile of stone, or a monster 40 levels higher than you that kills you instantly. "You can go anywhere, but you'll get slaughtered if you go anywhere but along the One True Path" isn't any more "open world" than a corridor shooter.







What they said.


edit: also, holding WoW up as an example of balance is pretty funny. And I say this as someone who's played every era of it since vanilla.

^This

Okay, so even though I understand your complaints. They're not really viable seeing as how these are 2 different games. If they implemented the leveling system that WoW has, it would take numerous hours to even progress to the next stage of the game. And who wants to spend 100+ hours playing a game just to beat the main storyline? I mean, people do play these games for over 100's of hours, but they're exploring and taking in the world. And the main reason people get bored with the MMO playstyle is repetition. It's ALL the same thing!! You can't beat something, so you go and train and level up. You progress and beat that part of the game. Then the next part, big surprise, is the same thing as what you just did. Time to go train some more. If they wanted this game to be like an MMO, they would have made it like one. Play the game. If you don't like it, then stop playing it. Makes no difference to me. Just quit whining about it!!

Alright, I'll keep up the WoW comparisons and why I disagree. Take note that I haven't played WoW since the end of wrath.

You know, leveling a mage in WoW didn't stop being painful until nearly the end of wrath. Even then it was still quite painful compared to, say, a hunter. Even now some classes are easier than others. So that was what, 6 years before they really smoothed out the leveling process? Blizzard weren't a new company to the idea of leveling either, so it's not like they didn't have experience.

As for your point that you don't see level ones in the high level areas because they don't have scaling, that's because WoW tries to have leveling as a linear process with limited options. You have what, 2 or 3 zones as options for your level range? Sometimes only one? Skyrim puts much more stock in the "go where you want, level where you want, explore as you want" options. WoW wouldn't work like that or everyone would just level in the same zones, as they're all so vastly different and favourites are likely to arise. Skyrim is a lot smaller and a lot smoother.

As for leveling up smithing thus being too high a level, I find exactly the opposite. When I first powerlevelled my smithing to just orcish gear, I found that I was far too powerful for my level. The level of damage in my blades and armour in my..well, armour, was huge compared to what the npcs pushed out. So I eased off and went out and did dungeon diving and spelunking and evened myself out a little.