It's not accurate to oppose Mmo and computer rpg.
Mmo have to manage a lot of people. When it's about playing computer rpg, you have to give yourself some common sense and reasonnable limits.
Complaining while people break immersion with exploitation of glitch and bugs is not an excuse, it's only a weakness or a lack of self-esteem.

The Rpg term is still viable on ES. It's just about self-dedication. Don't expect everything from the game develloper.

News flash!

let's talk about WoW again since it probably was the best designed game of all time with years of balance changes.

I can not believe that I read threw all this drivel, but now when I did, I feel the need to comment...
First of all, about all those flaming him for comparing an rpg to an mmo... It is just incredible stupid, the comparison is valid, even if they are different types of games. It is like saying you can not compare this game to the real world, because one is a computer game and the other is not... there is still similarities duh....

Secondly, to those saying that the level scaling only works for pure fighters, and that training the non combat skills breaks the balance... Smithing is the most OP skills fighting-wise. You can get the best possible armor for your current level, you can also improve it to about double (yes double! ) the stats of their normal version. That is a 2x in your fighting prowess right there. As for enchanting, it is even more op, 0 cost destruction spells? :/
On the other hand, skills like lockpicking, speach and alchemy is less useful in combat situations, but they are also much harder to power lvl. And if you really do sit down and break off 200 lockpicks in one lock to up your skill, then don't go around complaining about the game being unbalanced, because grinding one skill like that is not how this game was meant to be played.

Now to the issue at hand, the level scaling. I for one think it works quite well as it is, my only problem with the current game (apart from the crashes and occasional texture crash) is the difficulty of dragons. Their power is sufficient, but their terrible tactics make them super easy. Flying away after each blast of ice lets you recover way to easy, and why they are nibbling at you instead of just eating your face in melee combat, i do not know...
the level scaling is so that you can enjoy the whole world, throughout the game. If there where no level scaling, later in the game, you would have to go threw dozens of level 10 scaled dungeons to find one that is actually changeling for your level, and vise versa. No thanks!

If you really are so stupid to max smithing, but since you made nothing but iron daggers have no gear to put on, then go out and complain about the world not being to scale, then you deserve it. The game scales as if you actually have the armor that you now can make...And if all els fails, you can always turn down the dificulty if you want to role-play and only focus on non-combat skills. But where is the realism in being able to slay a dragon with no combat training what so ever?

/toggle.idioticrant

One of the interesting things I've been seeing about those supporting Bethesda's particular take on level scaling in Skyrim is that it's "realistic". Well after a fashion at any rate. Indeed, if one did spend 20 levels gaining skill in pickpocketing, alchemy and enchanting one could reasonably expect to not be up to par with the various and sundry monsters of the countryside. After all, this person has not really done anything to improve their combat viability. On the other hand, someone who avoids power leveling non-combat skills by focusing squarely on defeating bandits and bears in the wilds will likely be better off as things progress. Ultimately the issue is Skyrim can not be "won" through any other means than violence, and as such anyone who spends a whole lot of time failing to build up those essential combat quotas (be they melee or magic oriented) will be sorely unprepared to progress further in the game. Now we can argue about whether there should be other avenues to victory than this, but that's the way things are, and as such it does make logical and reasonable sense that people who neglect to build up those essential combat quotas (be they melee or magic oriented) would suffer the consequences. I would not even seek to argue this with anyone, who would ever ask for things to be more -unrealistic- anyway?

The problem is, this doesn't necessarily make for a good game mechanic. Particularly when making full use of a skill like smithing requires gaining many levels, apart from any power leveling with iron daggers. Indeed, if you want to craft Daedric armor, you're going to spend a lot of time doing things other than stabbing or magicking people (or beasts) to death. This is unavoidable, yet if one wishes to go down this path (as others have said) it's an all or nothing proposition. Trying to do it piecemeal is a recipe for disaster. This is because in Skyrim when you put 5 levels into, say, alchemy, that's 5 levels that your opponents put into getting to be stronger with sword and shield. Each time you gain any sort of increase in your non-combat stats, your competition does just the opposite. So as you sprinkle in speachcraft and enchanting and lockpicking you're slowly but surely making yourself unfit for duty in the field. I should point out further that no unnatural level grinding is required here, just the consistent and pragmatic use of skills other than the deadly arts. Now, since Skyrim's leveling system is not absolute (as Oblivion's was) some of these issues can be masked, that doesn't mean that they aren't there however. In my case, I got my first character to level 15 before realizing my large mix of skill levels had made me too weak to go anywhere or do anything meaningful. Sure, I could kill bandits, but anything above that would slaughter me easily. When I restarted, I made it to level 17 before touching anything other than combat-oriented or combat-related skill sets. I am of course doing better given the new strategy, but the restrictions on what I could do and wanted to do were purely artificial. It may have been quite realistic, but having to put off making potions didn't add anything to my enjoyment of the game. If anything it's a detraction.

Now I think some of this is due to Skyrim being a new game with systems and complexities that have never been field tested. Perhaps things can be tweaked and adjusted so that some of the more egregious stuff gets handled and remedied. So long as a person is avoiding exploitative grinding of levels, then they shouldn't be punished for pursuing a well rounded skill set that's in keeping with a proper RP of their particular character. I shouldn't have to worry that if I barter too much, I'll gain too many levels and thus be too weak against the next bandit outlaw that I see. Particularly so if I really -am- going out and fighting mobs and honing my fighting skills as well. It appears that at least in one sense Bethesda has not learned from Oblivion, because if what I'm hearing is accurate, the enemies you face in the province gain combat stat increases at every turn, even when you do not. I thought surely they would have found a way to moderate that problem from TES IV but perhaps not. And that really is too bad, because it does impose an artificial restriction in one progresses with a character, all the more so now because there are no minor skills and one can't level, say, sneak without worrying about imminent death. Not everyone who finds level scaling problematic is complaining over their failure to exploit a game mechanic without consequence.

So, I guess I've said my peace. Realism does not always equate to fun, and what's logical doesn't always match what's desirable gameplay wise. Who knows if it can be fixed, fortunately what we have now is better than what we got with Oblivion so if nothing else we're moving forward instead of backward. I just want to be able to RP a character with a reasonable mix of skills without fear that in the end I'll be so far behind my enemies that I'll have to quit. A rational and well thought out game plan shouldn't automatically result in failure under any circumstance. And for the record, I do know there is a difficulty slider, I'd prefer not to turn it up or down as I'm not really looking for more or less challenge, just the freedom to do what I'd like to do. In that sense I can identify with the OP and what he's trying to say. Things could be done better, it's all a question of how to proceed and what to fix. I guess we'll see what happens soon enough.

Am I the only one that didn't have a problem with the leveling system? I mean really was the game that hard for you?
It's not the best but it's not the worst. I just don't understand the hate.

Yeah, play a human thief and then a warrior in BG II. BALANCED AS [censored]. Also, I prefer MW and even Skyrim to BG. Deal with It.

Also, why is that skyrim is attracting a never before seen amount of non RPG players? Sure, every companie's goal is to make money, but MMO players looking for an MMO should play an MMO... I won't go to CoD forums and say "HURR, NOT INMERSIVE", nor I'd dare to say "Morrowind is a bad game 'cause It's got exploits!!!11"

with the level scaling as it stands, at lvl 30, 2 mudcrabs made lunch out of an atronach. I want them as my companion now

lol. Isn't that [censored]. Like wth.


Or the cave with regular bandits now have highwaymen and lords with mages spamming master level spells at level 24 O_O. That ruined my day. I was doing a winterrun quest that I did on an alt no problem. I couldn't evn get to the boss because no matter how much strategy i used, the would 2 shot my companion and summoning while KILLING my companion with passive aoe giant fire walls and i am using apprentice spells doing 10% of a person's hp per 3 second charge....

Dear lord, I hate the stupidity of mankind.

Regardless of whether you agree with the opinion of the OP, there is no excuse for completely ignoring all of his points and going ape s.hit because he put the terms "MMO" and "WoW" in his OP.

Morons. Almost all of you.

Er, Skyrim isn't an MMO?

Did you guys even read what the OP wrote? He isn't saying Skyrim is an MMO. He is just saying that it could have done it's skills better. He is using examples like WoW because the smithing and leveling is BETTER. It doesn't matter if its Single Player or not, it COULD have been better.

If you people are still hyping the hell out of this game without acknowledging the PROBLEMS at hand, then you will be deemed an ignorant and troll. By the way, who says he doesn't appreciate the game? The game is good and everyone knows this, there is no need to get insecure because someone has problems with it. The OP is right, I am playing on master and I have 80 smithing with two Enchanted Ebony axes that do 120 each, I am literally cutting through everything with little problem.

I HIGHLY DOUBT BETHESDA THOUGHT WE WOULD HAVE TO PUT OUR SELVES AT A DISADVANTAGE IN ORDER TO PLAY THE GAME AND HAVE A CHALLENGE AT THE SAME TIME. If I want to have really strong armor, with really strong weapons, I should be able to find enemies that have the same. Not some lame Bandit Outlaw that dies from a single power attack.

I'm done here, you people to get that TL;DR mentality out, and if you can't, simply don't comment and keep yourself from trolling. God, the internet has turned into a huge cesspool of [censored].