Problem with that logic is that there is no alternative to an Elder Scrolls game besides ES games (which for most of us have already gotten severely old. I'd still like very much to play Morrowind as I still haven't even finished the game after 2500+ hours, but I can't stand to play it anymore because I've just played it so much. Same with Oblivion and Daggerfall) so there is no real choice to just walk away. We either play what Beth gives us or we miss out on an experience we adore very much. But that doesn't mean we should have to accept a shallow husk of that experience just because there is no other real alternative.



Not everyone who argues on this side of things does so in the most intelligent way ever (and this is no slight to the OP)

And besides, I'm the sort of person that takes over a person's argument if they aren't supporting it well enough, and especially so if I happen to agree with them to some point. Just because OP's argument isn't fleshed out doesn't mean it couldn't be. And thats where someone like me comes in.

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Yes, but those you will never satisfy are not the people you should be catering to. The system I came up would satisfy people on both sides of this argument, IE, the vast majority of people playing this game if not the full player base itself. Those that wouldn't be satisfied are of no relevance, because those sorts of people likely don't even want this kind of game, very much less the most ideal system for it.

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And there is no reason why your integrity cannot be maintained even among these changes. Again, my system provides a modern experience while still catering to both sides here. Feel free to read it here: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1341740-my-idea-for-a-completely-overhauled-character-development-system/

And Beth would be more than capable of implementing such a system if they'd give it the proper focus. Apply this same line of thinking (meeting the best and deepest middle ground) to the rest of the game and you'll create something legendary.


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Look at this kid, pretending he's going to refute my argument because he's an exception to it.

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I'm not sure it's a minority.

What does it matter? Sales numbers are not the topic, are they?

Get out of D&D mode - Elder Scrolls isn't, nor ever has been, D&D.

Picking a lot =/= "master thief"

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Indeed. I don't particularly like Ulfric (though I support the Rebellion) but if I could I would lead the Rebellion on a proper path.



Exceptions do not disprove the rule.

Wow. You know what's the marker of a GREAT game franchise? The fact that threads like this one exist, and manage to remain relatively civil on both "sides".... I guess my opinion is that those who find an overwhelming need to micromagnify a series' changes over time should probably loosen up a bit. EVERYTHING evolves. Even TES. Some of us aren't upset with the current iteration. Some of you are. But really, the choices are simply to play the game as it's released; mod the game to your liking (now that the CK is out); or move on.

To me, it doesn't matter how "dumbed down" Skyrim is, it's still the most fun I've had in years.... just as each of the previous games was. People need to realize that life today (for normal, not-retired-with-all-the-time-in-the-world-to-play people like me) is so hectic that many players have very little time to get into a game - and for those people (which, lately, seems like a LARGE proportion of people who play games) a 10 hour guild questline may not be anything they can even start on....

Regardless, one of the strengths of this franchise IS that the modding community will step up to the plate shortly, with whatever most of you are looking for to make Skyrim "more like" Morrowind or whichever.... Hmmm. I think maybe I must be wishing it was spring training already, using that anology....

UH it seemed to matter when you tried to use it as a fact?

But a great world is nothing without memorable people, events and depth, all things Skyrim lacks.

You have a great point, but ask yourself this; in all of the hours that you have played the game, has anything you actually did in the game made a change in the story or how NPCs react to you, etc (player agency)? After a while of just roaming around and absorbing the gorgeous vistas, all that is left are the linear unchanging quests and the never ending slaughter of just burning, shocking, freezing, hacking, shooting and punching out various enemies. So what does it all mean while doing all of that? The game will get stale fast after doing that so much. As far as modders, they will do awesome things, but I don't think they will be able to add play agency

You could always keep playing Morrowind and not worry about the kids playing on your lawn.

You have a great point, but ask yourself this; in all of the hours that you have played the game, has anything you actually did in the game made a change in the story or how NPCs react to you, etc (player agency)? After a while of just roaming around and absorbing the gorgeous vistas, all that is left are the linear unchanging quests and the never ending slaughter of just burning, shocking, freezing, hacking, shooting and punching out various enemies. So what does it all mean while doing all of that? The game will get stale fast after doing that so much. As far as modders, they will do awesome things, but I don't think they will be able to add play agency

Where was this moved to?

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Neither. I'm saying that arbitrarily and systematically removing RPG elements in favor of action-adventure or to cater to something massively stupid and irrelevant is terrible. And all because Todd apparently doesn't have the stones to drop RPG altogether and just go full on action-adventure from now on. At least then I could accept the games for what they are, as opposed to denying them because they don't stack up to what they should have been, nor for that matter what they used to be.

If Beth doesn't want to do RPG's anymore, then it needs to cut the crap and stop creating half-assed games that are clearly moving more and more towards free roaming action-adventure. I like games like Just Cause 2. But thats not what I play Elder Scrolls for, and if ES is going to remain an RPG series then Beth needs to stop what its doing with the direction they've been g oing.

They've been making deeper and deeper RPG's.

So they can go ahead and continue with what they are doing, thanks.

Except the new features it does add do not make up for what has been lost.

No, you fail to read my comment... It was not just burning, shocking, freezing, hacking, shooting and punching out various enemies in Morrowind, nor in Oblivion nor now in Skyrim!!

So tell me, would you have complained if everything they've cut since Morrowind or hell even Daggerfall were still in the series? Would you have complained once if levitation or spellmaking or attributes were still present? Would you complain if these things were fixed and added onto?

No, you wouldn't. Thats what people are arguing for here. We want what was done. We want what was done to be fixed, expanded on. And we also want whats new.