The system you are suggesting might add complexity but it does not do so in a way that encourages versatility if everyone's stats are the same at the end. All it does is make concepts like my sneaky illusionist much harder to optimise and unfavourably muddles his attributes.


I'm a longtime player of Guild Wars 1, which has ten classes, a primary/secondary dual class system, four unique attributes per class, (one primary which is unique to the class and three which can be shared by those who adopt the class as secondary), runes and insignias for armour pieces, which can boost attributes, defenses or skills and over a thousand skills to choose from, with several skills having two versions (PvE and PvP) and almost every skill being altered by attribute points... I could not disagree more with your point.

GW1 is a complex game and one which does offer a heck of a lot of versatility, especially next to other MMORPGs, or RPGs in general . However, it's no where near as flexible as GW2's system, which has four attributes, no secondary classes and no dedicated healer. GW1 still fell into the pitfalls of many MMORPGs, such as the 'Trinity' style of gameplay and traditional quests. GW2 doesn't.

TES has its own Trinity (Mage, Warrior, Thief) and stats rewarded purists above all others, which is a pain for those who want less traditional character archetypes. It makes fewer options truly viable and requires more pre-planning than is reflective of organic growth. A hidden stats system might well stop some casual players thinking about things too much but it means their character might be evolving in a way they would object to and in a way they cannot alter. For players who like to pre-plan, having everything hidden from them would irritate them too, because they want more control and more choice.

I do think Skyrim's system has room for improvement but in my opinion, stats are a definite step backwards at this stage and the present build is better than what's come before.

The big picture is that several substantive features (or features that could be enhanced to the same level of substance) are being systematically removed in favor of combat (which still isn't even good anyway) and silly crap that doesn't actually add anything.

Plenty like whats new because most of them don't know any better. Whether because they're young, casual (and not the good kind of casual either), or just plain ignorant. Not every who likes it falls under those categories, but most do. When you spend as much time as I do around gamers (from virtually everywhere mind you), it becomes painfully obvious why X game is popular and successful compared to game Y.


Personally I'd prefer to have my spoon and that fork. Or at the very least a spork.


So tell me, would you have complained if everything they've cut since Morrowind or hell even Daggerfall were still in the series? Would you have complained once if levitation or spellmaking or attributes were still present? Would you complain if these things were fixed and added onto?

No, you wouldn't. Thats what people are arguing for here. We want what was done. We want what was done to be fixed, expanded on. And we also want whats new.

That's the technocrat facist attitude, people are too stupid to realise what is good for them so they need someone (you) to decide what is good and what isn't...

...or perhaps it isn't that pure and simple that everything that the mainstream consumers enjoy by definition must be bad and poor quality, maybe the problem is you...

The brilliant thing is, this argument was had before the release of the game as well. Same old. I really wish someone would post something new with these criticisms that hasn't already been done to death.

And that's not me saying there shouldn't be any criticism - just that if a point has been made a million times before, at least try and find a new way of saying it. At the very least, check that what your complainign about wasn't removed in the last game as well.

The problem is you'll end up with a game that is just a collection of ideas. It would be like a garbage dump at that point. Every idea a developer ever implemented would still be in the game... which sounds terrible. Video games really strive for a more realistic atmosphere and things like levitation may not fit in Bethesda's vision of the game. At some point you have to look at it from their point of view, rather then your own.





Well, it seems like this hardcoe crowd is full of entitled elitists... I honestly can't understand why they would go for a more casual crowd who won't sit here and act all high and mighty

Either say what it needs, and more than just "all of Morrowind", or accept that Morrowind is the past.

If you give good arguments for each of your points will people listen. Trolling and baiting those who enjoy Skyrim right now will get you no favours from Bethesda.

Or perhaps you're too caught up in how I say things to realize that it is true that much of what is considered mainstream is actually devoid of a lot of worth that can be seen in ventures that are not so caught up in generating capital and playing on the apathy of its main audience.


The game would only end up like that if Beth just implemented ideas but never followed through with them. Thats the same stupid logic as assuming that because people mention Morrowind they must mean that they just want X features copied over and left as is.

And I have looked at it from their point of view, and quite frankly if it were me I'd strive to satisfy everyone while still maintaining my own integrity. I've already came up with an idea for character development that can easily satisfy any type of gamer, while still pushing for a deeper development system overall. If I spent the time to do so, I could likely come up with similar ideas for every other aspect of the game.

A good game is a good game, and it will sell well. The point is to not sell yourself out into making the other type of game that sells well.

Because they'll get more money that way. If it was genuinley in the best interest of the series, then fine, but it's not. Beth are screwing over the loyal fans in exchange for some new shiney ones. Don't blame us for being annoyed at that.

Nothing wrong with hating the game. It's got it's faults. But like others, I suggest to walk away. Into the sunset. Like a cool cowboy. Never buy a Bethesda game again.

And before you say your input really matters, it doesn't. That's kind of the point on why the game probably svcks for you in the first place. You've been left out. At least for the time being. It isn't going to be for at least another 3 or 4 years that you see another TES game. I'd suggest to hold your breath on being listened to at the moment. Maybe provide this crucial, valuable input of yours when they actually care to listen. They just released this game. It isn't going to be revamped because they suddenly and magically value your opinion.

And some of us like the direction the series took, and don't want a bunch of whiners coming around encouraging the devs to regress the game and backtrack.

Get a mod if you want crossbows or levitation spells. Seriously, this is the best, most fully realized game in the history of the Elder Scrolls franchise. Games have budgets, and you need to make triage decisions as to what features are worth implementing.

Beat it to death but it's really simple in two aspects. First picking locks forces you to level something you may or may not want. What if I want an optimal build level 50 warrior I wouldn't want to level based on skills outside my area of specialty, Mage same thing. Logic dictates I would bash it or use a spell.

Second is it realistic to expect everyone to do things the same way: example Repo guys just come tow your car with a truck, Car thieves break into it and alter the way it starts, Cops just break the hell in and or take it away by force. If any of those groups had a teleporter for a day I am sure they would use it for a day. Mercer and all that is great, No Mage misses the value of the key but absent the key before and or after allows people to revert to their former method.

1: It's in the best interest of the series for Bethesda to make money.
2: Unless it has been stated, you don't know if Bethesda is going after the casual crowd, and if they are it's not their sole focus.
3: You're the consumer, not the maker. It is incredibly misguided to believe you know what's best for the series when you're not the creator of the content. You could have played TES since the beginning and it isn't validated.



A couple of things I find confusing... if the features in morrowind were already deep, how could you possibly make them deeper? Also the OP mentioned specific examples from Morrowind and was annoyed that they had been taken out of the game. He never mentioned innovation, because honestly most of the features are still in the game just in a different form. He mentioned them as they were in Morrowind.

It's impossible to satisfy everyone, you're always going to alienate a group of people. It's also easy to come up with ideas, it's even harder to implement them in a way that isn't game breaking.


Good is subjective, and Bethesda didn't sell out. Games change, ideas change, the market changes, and that is something people have to get over. I don't exactly like how every shooter is like CoD, but I don't hold it against them because it works. It has been years since Oblivion, and the RPG market has changed, especially i the west.

I love virtually everything about skyrim except the shallow dialogue choices. eerything else is an upgrade to me. i'm a morrowind vet, have been playing it since 2003, and I'm definitely not a casual gamer.

so how do you explain that one, he who thinks his opinion is a blanket statement for humanity? what a joke kid.

Spears - They couldn't get them to function properly. They would have been a broken mechanic, thus, removed.

Levitation - Cities are in separate cells, meaning the game design can't allow someone to levitate over city walls, thus, breaking the game.

Unlock Spells - Completely negate the process of investing perk points into the lockpicking skill.

Lengthy questlines - I'm not arguing about this. Although I will say, the quests are much better on an individual level than they ever were in the past.

Spellmaking - I've written long essays as to why I believe the removal of Spellmaking is a good thing, due to the fact that it would be incompatible with the current game mechanics.

^ Basically, all of those things that people complain about that were removed are things that would be broken game mechanics if left in, and they are not features that are worth eliminating the progress in other areas for.

Sorry but it didn't work that way. Yes, skill-sets stacked from minor to major, but you could "ONLY" gain XP leveling your major skill (see the point), therefor, you could only level so high and it made you stick with your choice of class and sign. In Skyrim, you level everything and with ease. If you choose a major skill in Oblivion, but ramp the incorrect corresponding minor skill, this will make one or two of your major skills leve very difficult and very time consuming to level up. For example, don't use the correspond minor skill that assist in leveling up the major skill of Destruction, once you hit level 30 in Destruction, leveling up farther takes longer and longer to the point when you hit level 50, the range between getting from 50 and 51 takes literally hours upon hours to get there, by doing nothing but Destruction magic casting. So, in doing so, one has to stick with the class they chose. In Skyrim, it doesn't work that way since everything levels to easily and you are not held to being a certain class; it is action/adventure style gaming. Even if one really didn't want to abuse the system, it allows for it anyway on enchanting, smithing and alchemy, because they level way too fast and easily just for using them normally.

Seriously, if you leveled a minor skill in Oblivion that was not part of your class and sign set-up (like say you're a mage class with the Atronach sign) and you try leveling up Acrobatics, to get it to level 100 could literally take hundreds if not a thousand hours of doing specific activates related to that skill to get it maxed out. Does Skyrim work that way (of course not, all are too easy)? Yes, you can level up all skills in Oblivion, but only seven of them allow for gaining XP.

Agreed.

I have already been through this with Fallout 3.

And I can attest that posting, (and direct email ), does not often accomplish much.
(Except stress relief.)

I also agree with Echonite's mention of money, but on this scale it's of negligible effect.

1: Bethesda earns enough a year to buy their own [censored] continent. They have many problems, but a bad bank balance isn't one of them. Greed, however, is.
2: In simplifying the game, who do you think they are trying to appeal to? It's obviously not their sole focus, but it is an unfortunatley large portion of their focus. At least try to cater for both equally.
3: How is pissing off a good proportion of your core fanbase good for the series? True, i'm not the maker, but any idiot can tell what isn't good for a long standing RPG series, and handing your oldest fans a watered down version of a game that was good 5 years ago isn't the way to go.

The comment was not an argument, but a suggestion. It was also not one given to you. I do not argue about opinions or what people wish for. I do however comment on it when people do it for false reasons.

Now, if you do have an idea how to improve Skyrim then first try to find one of the many existing threads where people discuss these, or start one of your own. This thread was started as a bait thread and it will not go anywhere from there, trust me.

Considering the way some of you act, I think it's probably amusing to piss you off. That they get new lowly "casual" customers at the same time is a win-win scenario. Why not do it?

1: Bethesda isn't EA, or Activision milking their franchises for all its worth. I don't see how taking 3-4 years to create a game is being greedy. Talk to me when Bethesda goes into a 1 year cycle for games... but hey maybe then they would keep all the features people love.
2: Morrowind isn't deep or complex, and neither is Oblivion. You're kidding yourself if you think either game was this overly complex gaming experience. Skyrim itself isn't deep, but it doesn't need to be. Depth is a mere illusion that is so faintly veiled that it might as well be a transparent clothe.
3: Honestly if my hardcoe fans were this fickle I'd want them gone too.

Problem with that logic is that there is no alternative to an Elder Scrolls game besides ES games (which for most of us have already gotten severely old. I'd still like very much to play Morrowind as I still haven't even finished the game after 2500+ hours, but I can't stand to play it anymore because I've just played it so much. Same with Oblivion and Daggerfall) so there is no real choice to just walk away. We either play what Beth gives us or we miss out on an experience we adore very much. But that doesn't mean we should have to accept a shallow husk of that experience just because there is no other real alternative.


Not everyone who argues on this side of things does so in the most intelligent way ever (and this is no slight to the OP)

And besides, I'm the sort of person that takes over a person's argument if they aren't supporting it well enough, and especially so if I happen to agree with them to some point. Just because OP's argument isn't fleshed out doesn't mean it couldn't be. And thats where someone like me comes in.



Yes, but those you will never satisfy are not the people you should be catering to. The system I came up would satisfy people on both sides of this argument, IE, the vast majority of people playing this game if not the full player base itself. Those that wouldn't be satisfied are of no relevance, because those sorts of people likely don't even want this kind of game, very much less the most ideal system for it.



And there is no reason why your integrity cannot be maintained even among these changes. Again, my system provides a modern experience while still catering to both sides here. Feel free to read it here: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1341740-my-idea-for-a-completely-overhauled-character-development-system/

And Beth would be more than capable of implementing such a system if they'd give it the proper focus. Apply this same line of thinking (meeting the best and deepest middle ground) to the rest of the game and you'll create something legendary.




Look at this kid, pretending he's going to refute my argument because he's an exception to it.

Spears - They couldn't get them to function properly. They would have been a broken mechanic, thus, removed. They work fine in Mount and Blade, and they sure as hell worked fine in Morrowind.

Levitation - Cities are in separate cells, meaning the game design can't allow someone to levitate over city walls, thus, breaking the game. Called adding doors to the top of city cells that put you either into the city or outside of it.

Unlock Spells - Completely negate the process of investing perk points into the lockpicking skill. Magic negates the point of investing anything in anything. Should we remove magic too?

Lengthy questlines - I'm not arguing about this. Although I will say, the quests are much better on an individual level than they ever were in the past.No real comment here.

Spellmaking - I've written long essays as to why I believe the removal of Spellmaking is a good thing, due to the fact that it would be incompatible with the current game mechanics. Disagree.

Get out of D&D mode - Elder Scrolls isn't, nor ever has been, D&D.

Picking a lot =/= "master thief"

Interesting. It is much like in Skyrim as the same can be said about the Stormcloak soldiers supporting Ulfric.

I'm not sure it's a minority. Take a stroll by IGN look at the rankings fall newer staff reviews etc. rpgcodex anyone? Other venues abound where the same issues are aired and discussed. I bet Bioware forums where there are people 100% sure Mass Effect is so far beyond TES and point to their forums as proof. I am even willing to bet somewhere online there is someone telling someone else Pong is still the best game ever.

Lovers of Beth TES should consider that not everyone who would have liked something is the enemy. Not every complaint means hates Beth. This is where we belong god forbid we stop talking here and find a place where there are no fans but shopping public. And like all things media cost can't always be seen right away. When there is a mistake it is the next title to suffer sales. I would also point out (like I did once before) there are copies of Skyrim selling for $21.99 on ebay you would think demand would push that higher??????

But at the point I break because I am not welcome here I will have lots of "Go away your opinion doesn't count for [censored] you [censored] [censored] smoking son of a [censored]" will make lovely examples (in posts on more public gaming forums/ sales areas) of how far things have fallen. Please keep the gems of coming.