Too Much Has Been Gutted, Too Much Is Gone.

Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:09 am

Well, now that this topic has been aired again and the comments are flowing I will add my own list of Where the Hell did all my (fill in yourself) go to.

One of the biggest problems for me right off the bat was the Magic system. To simple give you a bunch of generic tomes and then never allow you to custom craft spells is unforgiveable. That was half the fun of Morrowind and Oblivion. I am so glad there is Midas Magic at least for the PC community.

The whole magic system and the pathetic College of Mages is just annoying and a total step backwards for the game devs.

Removing the damage done to armor and weapons from use and combat is also a big deal to me. I am so used to just whipping out my repair hammer after combat and banging away at my broken gear. That was a major factor in the realism of the combat and battle of the last 2 games. I get hit by a freaking bear or Giant and I want my armor to get shredded like it would in real combat.

Limiting the enemy scaling to 25-30. That just kind of makes the game pointless after level 35-40. Even on Master it still gets pretty easy to get multiple kill-moves and savage kills on most enemies. I want to encounter bad ass enemies who will give me a mighty test of my battle skills and experience. A lot of people evidently wanted the weak and limited enemies. Thank Talos for Wars In Skyrim and a few other mods that add new combat difficulty and enemies.

I could keep going for a few more hundred paragraphs, but I think I made my point. I started with Arena, then spent a whole lot of time on Daggerfall. I have played well over 1500 hours of Morrowind and about 2000 hours of Oblvion due to a chronic disease I am suffering from. I guess that makes me pretty qualified to be critical of the new and stripped down ES.

I'll shut my gob now and try to help make the game better by posting to the developers and supporting the amazing modding community.
There's so much wrong in that :'(

The realism part of taking your hammer stack between each combat and repairing your bow and your leather armor by banging them and breaking hammer after hammer after EACH fight is for sure such a good thing I can't see why Bethesda decided to get rid of it.

Oh and you should know that monster level goes up to ~50 and not 25-30, dunno why you talk while you obviously know nothing about the subject. For example, Arch Necromancers are cute little boys and girls level 46 with an earnest desire to melt your face off and raise your body afterwards.
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Makenna Nomad
 
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Post » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:02 pm

Where does Bethesda go from here?
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phillip crookes
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:18 am

If you're not a troll, you sir are late. This forum's community is tired of the constant whining over the same f*cking things time and time again. Please keep your frustrations for yourself, exchange your game and leave this forum.
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Soraya Davy
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:52 am

One small point : I have never been on the Fallout forums. Were they ever full of complaints that not being able to shoot locks was limiting choices?

Anyway, on topic, My opinion is any problems are not with the mechanics, you can make varied characters with the perk choices, and a lot of problems (destruction damage, 0% magicka cost, lockpicking useless as mini-game too easy, fortify restoration for mad smithing, not enough spells etc.) can be fixed with tweaks and caps, not requiring complete overhauls and rethinking. The problems are with the stories and npc interactions.
There are glimpses of what could have been. Kill yer man, get staff, or let him destroy staff; do Prince's bidding, or miss out on dagger. If there were a lot more of such instances, the amount of rpg to action would be shifted considerably. Stormcloaks v. Empire, why are the other factions not in competition? I appreciate the game is made to accommodate those who want all the content with one character, but it wouldn't hurt to have the companions demand some extra loyalty-proving radiant quests for a member of the college, or even a Mer. The quests themselves wouldn't matter, it's the conversations you would have, as to why they were necessary, that would make the difference. Branches, choices, consequences, imo the one area that would turn a great action game into a great role player.
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Amy Gibson
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:17 am

Hokay.
Philosophical point: A difference that makes no difference -is- no difference. Where are the choices that actually make a difference?
Choices in the main quest. That actually have an effect on the game world. I'm not talking about 'I choose to pretend I have relevance in the game world'. I mean your in game actions that change things. You earn a reputation, good or bad.
Where are they? NOTHING YOU DO MAKES ONE DAMN BIT OF DIFFERENCE IN THE GAMEWORLD. You can sit on your butt for 1,000 game years and nothing changes. Alduin doesn't eat the world. No one seeks you out because you might be the chosen one. Empire or Stormcloaks, the only thing that changes is the armor the city guards wear.
Mages Guild. Do you have any options besides doing that quest line bing bang bong hey, you are Archmage even though can't magic yourself out of a wet paper bag! Can you side with Ancano? Can you just let the twit blow the college off what's left of the cliff? No. You do the linear quest or it sits there in your GUI forever....as does the situation you leave it in.
Branching quests; where are they? You are treated the same if you are the archmage of Winterhold or the Nightingale of the Dark Brotherhood. Your choice in the civil war makes no difference whatsoever. You have no option to refuse the vast majority of quests.....or accept them and betray one of more characters (outside of -very- specific instances).
What about the choices you should be having to make as Dovahkin, Hmmmmmmm? You alone wield a power given by the Divines. Aside from a couple of cheesy assassination attempts as you walk along the road, none of the power centers pay one diddly-damn bit of attention to you. Ulfric wouldn't be out chasing you down, as having a Dragonborn on his side would enhance his position....or if you weren't on his side, he wouldn't be out trying with all his might to kill you, as you could shout his ass into Oblivion? Why isn't one faction trying to make you Emperor, as you are Dragonborn as has not been seen since Uriel Septim VII, never mind Tiber Septim? Why isn't the Emperor doing =his= damnedest to have you killed, for obvious reasons? Where's all the choices that the Thalmor's meddling should force your way?

No matter how you chirp about all your imaginings, if the game doesn't recognize it, it isn't relevant in the game world. People are having to gimp themselves to even halfway play a character they want to. Think about that a moment; a player has to deliberately break the game in a negative fashion to have the character they want to play. Not metagame. Not grind. Gimp. Sure Skyrim is a fun tech demo.......and that is all it ultimately is. And no, I don't want Morrowind (although another game -in- current day Morrowind.....the whole province, or whats left of it.....might be nice); I'm still waiting for the game that is worthy of the title of 'Sequel to the 1996 GOTY Daggerfall'. Because Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim certainly haven't earned it.

Oh, and Daggerfall certainly was -not- my first CRPG.....or even my first Bethesda CRPG. That was Arena (Ultima's and Might and Magic were in the firsts).....and DF was a huge improvement.

And I keep responding to the fan-drool as having ridden the whole ride, it is painful to watch a once encompassing roleplaying experience sink to the lowest common denominators in graphics vs story, thought vs linearity, challenge vs 'Even Bubba can play this game!'.

This^

Daggerfall was my favorite of all the TES games. I guess I am old school as I have been playing cRPGs since 1980. I think that last true game that did what you describe was Dragon Age: Origins.
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Janeth Valenzuela Castelo
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:48 am

*shugs* I think its fine..yes It's changed, yes I feel the lore from the books are much more exciting then the quests given..But I enjoy them! And so, I'll keep playing....untill the day it becomes 'multi-player' :yuck:
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bonita mathews
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:50 am

Where does Bethesda go from here?
There is a fair chance they will walk further away from you as you are still seeing their work only as an extension of Morrowind.

Fus-Ro-Dah!!!
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Peetay
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:11 am

It's rather unfair to point out 'missing' features from Morrowind in Skyrim without mentioning any of the new features it actually adds.
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Brad Johnson
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:40 am

Anyone noticed that the OP has basically randomly threw a punch at someone, started a bar fight and walked out? All these are old old issues, each item has a thread all by itself. Anyway, my views:

Levitation is broken when the game is not designed for it and when thieves are forced to be mages because they cannot climb walls. Until the day the game itself is designed with options for vertical exploration like Assassin's Creed, levitation remains a mechanic I can do without.

Unlock spells would cheapen the lockpick skill and it's perks. Basically a Mage will make a better thief since they have a 100% get out of jail card. Combined with muffle and invisibility, the best thief is actually a mage.

As for crossbow and spears, more is better so there isn't really much to argue about. The only thing is effort vs reward, effort of making an entirely new set of first person and third person animations for thrusting weapons vs the reward of having a second style of combat. Unfortunately Bethesda deems that the effort was not worth the reward.
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Rinceoir
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:22 am

What you are saying is that Bethesda is making a loss with Skyrim or that Skyrim is not fun to play.


Neither. I'm saying that arbitrarily and systematically removing RPG elements in favor of action-adventure or to cater to something massively stupid and irrelevant is terrible. And all because Todd apparently doesn't have the stones to drop RPG altogether and just go full on action-adventure from now on. At least then I could accept the games for what they are, as opposed to denying them because they don't stack up to what they should have been, nor for that matter what they used to be.

If Beth doesn't want to do RPG's anymore, then it needs to cut the crap and stop creating half-assed games that are clearly moving more and more towards free roaming action-adventure. I like games like Just Cause 2. But thats not what I play Elder Scrolls for, and if ES is going to remain an RPG series then Beth needs to stop what its doing with the direction they've been g oing.
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IM NOT EASY
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:05 am

I disagree somewhat with this, but this is my opinion. Going along the means why you think this current system is better and Oblivion's isn't, just doesn't seem to allow for role playing. If it is RPing for you, that is fine and I am not going to get into definition wars here, just pointing out. When you mention when someone chose an attribute in Oblivion, like Willpower, they would cast spells (this follows your strength comparison as well). Exactly what is wrong with that, as it has the player follow the style of character class they want to play and especially what they chose? Being a mage, one wants to raise the appropriate atts. to make being a mage powerful. In Skyrim, this doesn't matter anymore, because every skill levels easily and there's no real thinking (or even worry) about what a class to play, and in reality, class has been removed since all skills can be leveled earning XPs. You only earned XP in Oblivion according to the 7 major skills you chose and that kept the player sticking to the class they started playing.

Wut??
From which insane plain of oblivion did your characters spawn? If you wanted to play a mage, you put all the magic skills in the minor skills category, that way you could inflate your willpower and intelligence much more with every level, and as an added benefit, your prime skills increased much faster than your level which meant you became much better than your level-scaled enemies. The best, most over-powered and skilled magic user in the game, was the barbarian class...
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john palmer
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:16 am

There's so much wrong in that :'(

The realism part of taking your hammer stack between each combat and repairing your bow and your leather armor by banging them and breaking hammer after hammer after EACH fight is for sure such a good thing I can't see why Bethesda decided to get rid of it.

Oh and you should know that monster level goes up to ~50 and not 25-30, dunno why you talk while you obviously know nothing about the subject. For example, Arch Necromancers are cute little boys and girls level 46 with an earnest desire to melt your face off and raise your body afterwards.

You use the CK yet? Most common bandits and others are only level 25, and the bosses are only 30. Matter of fact there are only 3 named NPCs in the game who are above lvl 30.

I suggest you not disparage me when I know what I speak of. I am editting an NPC enemy level/scaling list for a mod as I type this, so I do have a bit of a clue as to what I refer too.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Category:Skyrim-NPCs-by-Level
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Isabell Hoffmann
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:05 am

i personally think that skyrim is moving in the right direction! but in the wrong way, on some notes. overall I think that skyrim is an amazing game and I think that bethesda has done a phenomenal job! i think that they could have added more diversity in dialogue, and made choices mater. currently, the choices i make don't matter at all because there's no two ways to completely any quest. it's very linear, and there is no choice! this is one of the only bad things I think about skyrim. i think that they did an amazing job with the game and i am enjoying it greatly.

people must understand that things are changing, gaming is changing, gamERS are changing, therefore games must change!
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Louise
 
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Post » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:00 pm

It's rather unfair to point out 'missing' features from Morrowind in Skyrim without mentioning any of the new features it actually adds.

Except the new features it does add do not make up for what has been lost.
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Lynette Wilson
 
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Post » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:46 pm

I've sliced myself while cutting up foodstuffs, it didn't require a great amount of strength to do an annoying amount of damage. Sticking something sharp into someone's back and killing them in one hit is a less a matter of strength and more an issue of dexterity and stealth. If my character's blades are sharp, he doesn't need to be strong to get the job done. A behind-the-scenes stats system like what's been suggested would muddle up his concept in an entirely unwelcome way.
A sword is heavy. You are holding it, lifting it, thrusting it, through armor and with the accuracy and steady hand to kill an opponent in a single shot. Comparing that to nicking your finger with a knife is ridiculous.

Also, note what I've bolded. You're describing an attribute. I've suggested tying stealth attacks to agility (which is synonymous with dexterity in most RPGs). What is your problem with this system then? And why shouldn't strength play any factor in your success?
As I said before, it would also be utterly pointless if players could max out all stats. Where's the customisation in a system like that? Well, it's where it is right now, in the skills.
You'll notice I've never commented on whether all stats could be maxxed or not. That's why I only responded to the first part of your post.
Not in their present state. You'd need a whole new way of locking chests and the like to counter magic.
Huh? "In their present state"? The only doors that cannot be picked with lockpicks are those requiring special keys or those with puzzles. How is this changed with the inclusion of an unlock spell?
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D LOpez
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:37 am

I Love morrowind,Loved oblivion but got a little bit dissapointed.Love skyrim almost as much i love morrowind so at least for me it is
Morrowind>Skyrim>Oblivion
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Queen Bitch
 
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Post » Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:33 pm

people must understand that things are changing, gaming is changing, gamERS are changing, therefore games must change!


Changing to what? Mindless idiocy that puts games like this on the level of silly flash games for all they're worth?

Change is fine when progression is actually occurring. Change is not fine when its a digression that is occurring.
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kirsty williams
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:22 am

You'd think you were listening to someone weeping the ruins of a bombed-out village...
looks like you dont really care about video games much.
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Beulah Bell
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:46 am


Except the new features it does add do not make up for what has been lost.
but that's just your opinion! there are plenty who love the new features and are not upset over the removal of things we didn't enjoy. you need to look at the big picture instead of your simple view.
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jesse villaneda
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:17 am

You know what, all the pre-release hype, and the only time I actually heard or read the term 'rpg' from anyone at all at Beth was one Matt Carofano interview. [Please feel free to correct me if it was prevalent and I missed loads of instances.]
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Lory Da Costa
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:19 am

Except the new features it does add do not make up for what has been lost.

Indeed. I tend to look at it this way. Say you have a spoon. Spoons are great. They're very good for scooping ings. Then someone comes along and takes away your spoon, but they give you a fork instead. Forks are great. They're very good for stabbing things. But you know what? It's not a spoon. It does different things. So it cannot really take the place of a spoon.

I'd like my spoon back.
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Fiori Pra
 
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Post » Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:36 pm

I agree for the most part. I don't hate the new games, but I feel like they're both missing some key elements that made Morrowind great. They're still amazing games, but if they captured more of Morrowind's power, they would have been legendary.

I keep hoping 'maybe the next one will go back to their roots' but they get more and more streamlined. Bethesda can't complain, though. In terms of overall appeal, Skyrim > Oblivion > Morrowind. Let's just hope there's a cut-off point, otherwise the Elder Scrolls XXIII will be Call of Duty with a fantasy setting (probably with guns, though).

Speaking of guns, at least we won there, right?
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Taylor Tifany
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:04 am

Number 1 RPG series lol? This is barely passable. It's as shallow an RPG as you can get.

You haven't seen any shallow RPGs yet. Did you even play Morrowind and Oblivivon (well I suppose you have or you wouldn't have written this thread). They were great. Skyrim is great too, what they did was throw away a lot of things but really make what remained awesome. I suppose they adopted a quality over quantity mindset. My only problem is that the game feels like one created for CoD playing kids with anger management problems who don't kown the word logic and essentially go on a killing rampage (slaughtering essential characters by the dozen) when something doesn't work. That's why you can (illogically) do anything, like be the head of the College of Winterhold when your charcter is a semi-literate barbarian.
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Roddy
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:04 am

first of all there is way more content in skyrim then really any game i know of ever.....who gives a crap about crossbows and levitation, they left out stupid crap like that, as far as spellmaking, i don't miss spellmaking either, and who cares about jump height,, acrobatics was a stupid skill anyway..you just want a lot of useless crap in the game....they might of left out some stupid crap but they added a lot of cool things like having a couple hundred perks to choose from and standing stones, plus you get to decide directly how much health, magic and stamina you get....so you're just stuck in the past. skyrim blows away every elder scrolls game to date. easily.
that always seems to be the argument. "lol who wanted content anyways right guys? it was DUMB and USELESS. swords? pfft. all we need is one button, i mean everything else is just fluff right guise?"
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Ash
 
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Post » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:57 am

[/color]

Changing to what? Mindless idiocy that puts games like this on the level of silly flash games for all they're worth?

Change is fine when progression is actually occurring. Change is not fine when its a digression that is occurring.
im sorry but people like you really make me mad. you think your opinion is a fact, but it's not! there are plenty of people who ENJOY the change the game is taking! how can you explain that? are we all just stupid, mindless gamers? Morrowind is my favorite elder scrolls game, I love it with a passion. but that time is past, things changed. and I'm ok with that because i'm a rational human being.
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Dewayne Quattlebaum
 
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